[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And another bit that I didn’t quite agree with that seems to be generally approved was the White Council. Especially Saruman. I mean, he’s supposed to be respected and “the wise” still here, right? And then he keeps going on about how he doesn’t like the dwarves not coming to talk to him and blahblah and is completely ignored by Gandalf and Galadriel who have their secret wee talk. No respect whatsoever. Which annoys me a great deal, because I feel like it’s contrary to PJ’s own works – in LOTR, Gandalf goes to ask for his help, talking about the greatest of his order and so on, and here he seems like a complaining child who wants to stop others from playing because he wasn’t involved in the first place.

I wasn't happy with Ian McKellan's delivery of that line in the FOTR movie ("I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me, Frodo, he'll know what to do."), because it definitely came off too trusting towards Saruman. And then in particular, it didn't seem to fit well with the White Council scene in The Hobbit, because if I remember it correctly, Gandalf shoots Saruman a suspicious look, and then also the meeting with Galadriel.

However, I think it can still work, because like Legate, I really did like the internal dynamics of the White Council.

As Legate said, we get Saruman's perspective, and strictly within a book context he is jealous of Gandalf right at the start. He also knows that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to head the Council, and this is probably where he gets to accusing them of conspiring against him. From, Saruman's perspective, completely true, but he's assuming an evil and personal intent by Gandalf and Galadriel to supplant him (much like Denethor's "Your left hand you would use as a shield against Mordor, but with your right you seek to supplant me." Denethor is completely correct, Gandalf seeks to restore Aragorn as the rightful King, but Denethor's perspective carries a negative connotation. The readers know Gandalf is making the legitimate and rightful decision in supporting Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor).

Saruman's also got an arrogant and superior personality. He is the head of the Istari, he does have far more knowledge in matters concering Sauron and Ring-lore than Gandalf, and it is his designs which ultimately drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur. Other matters are below his standing, however. For example, there is a clear disdain towards Radagast, and my opinion is because Radagast's special knowledge of herbs and beasts is in Saruman's opinion, not knowledge that he deems "worthy." Same as how Saruman chides Gandalf for paying attention to Hobbits. Hobbits are below Saruman's respect, and he feels Gandalf could put his time and thought to far more important matters.

From Gandalf's perspective, we know that he doesn't find out Saruman is a traitor until going to Isengard and being imprisoned there. He could not conceive Saruman was a turn-cloak, if he suspected it he said he would not have gone or he would have been more wary (The Council of Elrond). However, there are moments Gandalf does suspect, or at least, seemingly scratch his head at Saruman's decision making. He does have clear disagreements over how Saruman keeps dragging his feet over the question of Sauron's return to Dol Guldur. And at a later White Council meeting, when Saruman objects to attacking Dol Guldur, this is where he chides Gandalf for paying too much attention to hobbits and that perhaps the "halfling's leaf" he so often enjoys has slowed his mind. Gandalf responds in kind by blowing a smoke-ring symbolizing that Saruman's delving into Ring-lore is a dangerous slope:

Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met, except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings' leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him, and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and smoke, while others are in earnest speech."

But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. You might find that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies."

Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."

Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.~Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring

Sorry for the lengthy quote there.

In sum, I didn't like how McKellan delivered the line in FOTR, because it does come off as too trusty towards Saruman. However, still at that point, Gandalf did not know, nor seem to seriously suspect Saruman was a traitor. But I think Gandalf's perspective is one that goes from professional disagreement (thinks Dol Guldur should be attacked, Saruman disagrees. No more serious than perhaps an employee having a professional disagreement with his/her boss), to some inkling suspicion, and then without question once he goes to Orthanc in FOTR, Saruman's revealed his hand. Saruman sees it differently, being jealous of Gandalf and feeling Gandalf wants his position.