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HerenIstarion · 01-09-2005, 12:21 PM

Ah, for the fifth year we disagree on this subject

On balrog origins, see here (One Hand tied behind their backs by Mithadan, post #32)

I consciously avoided wings issue in the article linked to.

But I still hold they did not have wings

Arguments (not touching on traditional 'like wings' quote from LoTR, for it may be used as pro and contra argument likewise.

Balrogs may have had wings originally (that is, as Tolkien envisioned them, as 'fallen angels'. Allegedly, angels having wings and balorgs too. Excuse me drawing in this inappropriate imagery, but have you played Heroes of Might and Magic IV? I suppose you must have, Mr.U? Remember 'angels' and 'demons' of that game? Former have feather wings and the latter leather wings - but that is part of the whole Western mythic imagery - as bats (leather wings) are associated with vampires (Evil) and dove (feather wings) with Holy Spirit, basilisk (leather wings) is scared away by cockerel (feather wings) etc.

But winged angels (besides two first orders, cherubs and seraphs, who have four and six ccorrespondingly), appearence is not confirmed by any sacred text. It's just a popular belief, kind of an 'urban legend' for first Christians (see link to mark 12_30's post below). So I hold that as Tolkien 'conscioulsy' revised his work, he changed his mind (as it may be misleading to imagine things which are spiritual, and may actually have no physical 'look' at all)

What am I driving at? As was discussed in many good threads around the Downs (Ëalar and Incarnation by obloquy for one, it is in Haudh-en-Ndengin, Do Ainur have wings by Estelyn for two, mark (pun intended) mark 12_30's post there). Ainur, in general, do not need physical bodies for travel, unless they are tied to their bodies (Deliberately for Istari, habitually for balrogs - practicing incarnate activities making the bondage unbreakable - see excerpts from Osanwe-Kenta on the subject here - The Ainur and their physical forms by Neithan)

But once they 'grow' incarnate, their physical forms are:

1. What they chose in the beginning and grew accustomed to
2. Reflection of their inward status - hence Sauron being only 'terrible' after some point

And another very grave but - BUT in both cases, biological functionality plays the major part - i.e. spirits who fly take form of eagles - i.e. physical apparatus designed for flight. Humanoid form, however, is an apparatus specifically designed for upright walking. Wings on it look as out of place as they would on a seal or a snail. Biological inconsistency, so to say. (Or John Travolta with a bottle of whiskey by the fridge)

And there is also age old argument of mine about two duels with balrogs. (Gandalf and Glorfindel). In both cases balrogs do fall down the abyss. Why should they fall, if the are winged and able of flight? In Gandalf's case it may be argued that the abyss below the bridge is too narrow for such a huge flier to spread its wings, but in Glorfindel's case the abyss is quite wide - enormous Thorondor flies down and up it to recover Glorfindel's body after the battle is over.

01-09-2005, 12:21 PM	#44
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	No. Ah, for the fifth year we disagree on this subject On balrog origins, see here (One Hand tied behind their backs by Mithadan, post #32) I consciously avoided wings issue in the article linked to. But I still hold they did not have wings Arguments (not touching on traditional 'like wings' quote from LoTR, for it may be used as pro and contra argument likewise. Balrogs may have had wings originally (that is, as Tolkien envisioned them, as 'fallen angels'. Allegedly, angels having wings and balorgs too. Excuse me drawing in this inappropriate imagery, but have you played Heroes of Might and Magic IV? I suppose you must have, Mr.U? Remember 'angels' and 'demons' of that game? Former have feather wings and the latter leather wings - but that is part of the whole Western mythic imagery - as bats (leather wings) are associated with vampires (Evil) and dove (feather wings) with Holy Spirit, basilisk (leather wings) is scared away by cockerel (feather wings) etc. But winged angels (besides two first orders, cherubs and seraphs, who have four and six ccorrespondingly), appearence is not confirmed by any sacred text. It's just a popular belief, kind of an 'urban legend' for first Christians (see link to mark 12_30's post below). So I hold that as Tolkien 'conscioulsy' revised his work, he changed his mind (as it may be misleading to imagine things which are spiritual, and may actually have no physical 'look' at all) What am I driving at? As was discussed in many good threads around the Downs (Ëalar and Incarnation by obloquy for one, it is in Haudh-en-Ndengin, Do Ainur have wings by Estelyn for two, mark (pun intended) mark 12_30's post there). Ainur, in general, do not need physical bodies for travel, unless they are tied to their bodies (Deliberately for Istari, habitually for balrogs - practicing incarnate activities making the bondage unbreakable - see excerpts from Osanwe-Kenta on the subject here - The Ainur and their physical forms by Neithan) But once they 'grow' incarnate, their physical forms are: 1. What they chose in the beginning and grew accustomed to 2. Reflection of their inward status - hence Sauron being only 'terrible' after some point And another very grave but - BUT in both cases, biological functionality plays the major part - i.e. spirits who fly take form of eagles - i.e. physical apparatus designed for flight. Humanoid form, however, is an apparatus specifically designed for upright walking. Wings on it look as out of place as they would on a seal or a snail. Biological inconsistency, so to say. (Or John Travolta with a bottle of whiskey by the fridge) And there is also age old argument of mine about two duels with balrogs. (Gandalf and Glorfindel). In both cases balrogs do fall down the abyss. Why should they fall, if the are winged and able of flight? In Gandalf's case it may be argued that the abyss below the bridge is too narrow for such a huge flier to spread its wings, but in Glorfindel's case the abyss is quite wide - enormous Thorondor flies down and up it to recover Glorfindel's body after the battle is over. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 01-09-2005 at 01:54 PM.