Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TY2300
These children were three parts of Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.
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This contradicts the various NoME texts which claim Arwen's choice was made at her wedding, and also implies the El-twins both became mortal. |
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin
I don't think the two cites are really contradictory, given Tolkien's old-school views: marrying a Man necessarily meant remaining with him/her in Middle-earth, and therefore staying behind when Elrond departed. I don't think it's necessary to pinpoint a moment when a "mortality switch" was flipped; Arwen does not appear to have died of anything except grief, and that essentially voluntarily.
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Thinking on this a bit more, I suspect "doom" is used here to mean prophecy: it's not that Manwe made a whole new ruling at the birth of each of Elrond's children, but that they were already under the offer of a choice, and were
prophesied to make that choice at the point Elrond departed overseas. Elrond's departure was a drawn-out process, so Arwen making the choice at her wedding fits into that.
I'm not sure what it means for the twins, though. "with him, or... remained behind" certainly implies that they had to get on the White Ship with their dad, but it's possible to read it as "depart to be Overseas with Elrond, or elect to remain behind permanently" - ie, the departure doesn't
have to be on the same boat as him. But the simplest reading is that Elladan and Elrohir both chose mortality.
Oh! And one more legendary union for the list: the Took family spoke of having a "fairy bride" somewhere in their history. Her existence is even less certain than Mithrellas, but we can't in good faith ignore her.
hS