[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I don't think that the Dead Marshes were specifically discussed. I would agree that the visions in the Dead Marshes were images and nothing more; not dead or undead. The images likely were placed there for shock and horror value by Sauron to make them even more difficult to traverse.

I suppose we do know that Sauron had the power to create "phantoms devised by wizardry", but it seems a bit of an odd plan - my understanding is that the Marshes lie between the Emyn Muil and the Morannon, so you wouldn't bring an army through them anyway. (The Two Towers points out that there's a road directly to the north!)

At least not by choice - but it's a great place to drive enemies into if they attack. Apparently both Amdir of Lorien and Ondoher of Gondor saw their soldiers driven into the marshes, as did the Wainriders.

So could it be less a roadblock and more of a trap? Drive the enemy in there, and make them so spooked that they can't fight any more? And if you happen to be, I dunno, a Necromancer, you could put a spell on the entire marsh to capture some essence of the fallen to add to the trap.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Silver hair" would indicate Telerin, or more precisely Sindarin Elves. One would assume that the fëar of these Elves would have been called to the Halls of Mandos after they died in battle. I'm not sure how they would become dispossessed spirits enthralled by Sauron when these Elves died during the War of the Last Alliance, in which Sauron himself was defeated. The Dead Marshes came to claim the graves of the fallen warriors over time -- hundreds or thousands of years?

So, when did this "fell light" consume these fallen warriors and reveal their visages after so many centuries? Tolkien never explained.

I think silver hair is more specific to Thingol's relatives than to the Sindar as a whole, but Tolkien may not have 'known' that at the time of writing. Unfinished Tales tells us they were more likely Silvan: "Malgalad [of Lorien] and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead Marshes."

Accepting that this is a late source, it implies that the Dead Marshes were already marshes, and possibly already cursed. Perhaps each elf that fell seemed to open their eyes again as they sank into the water, cupping a dancing light in their hands. It would work very nicely with my 'trap' theory.

The Two Towers says that "They fought on the plain for days and months at the Black Gates. But the Marshes have grown since then, swallowed up the graves; always creeping, creeping," but that doesn't mean the first Dead didn't appear during the battle itself. It just means that Sauron has somehow cursed the very water of the marsh - which is exactly what he's done to the Morgulduin. He probably gets a kick out of corrupting Ulmo's domain.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It comes down solely to taste whether or not one likes the Rivers and Beacon Hills story. It is very "late Tolkien" if that makes any sense as an aesthetic judgment.

It does, actually. Coupled with Myths Transformed, 'Late Tolkien' is (partly) the era of demysticisation. Previously mysterious things had to have a logical explanation, even if the explanation made the story less powerful.

Which I can totally accept, and even find useful - but I think I'm always going to aesthetically prefer the 'myths'.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

So I can easily imagine that the Calenardhon-side of the White Mountains was (probably lightly) settled by a folk akin to the Dunlendings and Gondorian hinterlands, and these probably dwindled and thinned even as the Dúnedain did: probably never a great population there, and exposed to dangers like the Wainriders and Balchoth. When Cirion gave away that land to the Rohirrim, there were probably few enough left to think of it as "none," but the idea that there might have been a small sect that, instead of fleeing to Gondor or Isengard or Dunland holed up behind Dunharrow, seems possible.

If so, maybe there was a long chain of hidden continuity with the Dead, but there needn't have been: the Paths of the Dead wouldn't have had any terror if the Dead couldn't influence the living, and the idea that the Dead might have corrupted or used some embittered near-Dunlendings driven to anger at the loss of THEIR land in the service of, as they'd see it, their own kin, to maim and kill Bregor as a sort of dark revenge ritual... well, I'm enjoying the idea.

This makes a lot of sense! Like you say, the Dunlendings would have had the land if they could, and we know the Rohirrim hated them and drove them out. It would tie Baldor's death to the Wulf coup; and it's notable that Aldor, Baldor's brother, seems to have devoted his time to persecuting the Dunlendings. Makes sense, if their kin killed his brother!

That said, it all fits very badly with "The way is shut... the Dead keep it". Whether the Old Man was a Dunlending, a Wose, or an animated corpse, if there's a whole colony still alive in the mountains, he's more than a bit of a liar.

hS