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littlemanpoet · 11-29-2012, 11:36 AM

Tolkien had no notion of LotR when The Hobbit was published, nor did the revision of The Hobbit in the early 60's change Gandalf.

I think it is sufficient to the discussion that Gandalf became more serious toward the end of the Hobbit on the merits of the thing growing from a 13 Dwarf gambit into a touchy inter-cultural (and inter-species) negotiation in which justice and compassion became issues. That is enough for me to understand the seriousness in Gandalf after Smaug is killed.

Therefore, it seems to me that we can dispense with such considerations as the white counsel and getting rid of Sauron for making the wizard more serious, being add-ins due to LotR.

As to the term "Nordic Wizard," I have a problem. "European" doesn't suffice because a Celtic magician is not the same thing, for example. The whole milieu of the Celtic mythos has a different feel. The Wizard introduced early in The Hobbit is not druidic ala Celtic.

There are, however consonances between Gandalf and Merlin of the Arthurian legends, and we know that the Arthurian legends are derived from the Celtic. This can be accounted for because the writers of the Arthurian tales did have a European sensibility as opposed to a purely Celtic.

At any rate, what I'm really getting at is that the Wizard introduced in the beginning of The Hobbit could have jumped out of a fairy tale by Jacob Grimm. So could the Dwarves. I can imagine Arthur Rackham doing some fascinating sketches of The Unexpected Party.

Legate, I remain unconvinced by the "personality growth" argument. It isn't necessary to explain Gandalf's seriousness toward the end of The Hobbit. Nor does it apply (to my mind) to the differences in Gandalf because he is Istari in LotR. We're not talking about a personality change at all. Gandalf really doesn't change in character, except to be known better.

What changes is the evocation of the Wizard at the hands of the author, as a wizard.

We have essentially two different wizards. They're close enough in their evocation that we readily accept the change. Nevertheless, gone is the Germanic (better word?) wizard of European lore and legend, and present is Tolkien's Olorin, a Maiar and Istari who is, frankly, immortal though incarnated. The wizard in The Unexpected Party may not be your average human being, may not be human at all .... but he might be, and most certainly he is mysterious. The feel is completely different.

Note the difference from the language itself: Olorin, Istari, Maiar ... versus Gandalf, wizard, seeming positively sorcerous. Language is, Tolkien told us, the means of incantation.

11-29-2012, 11:36 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Tolkien had no notion of LotR when The Hobbit was published, nor did the revision of The Hobbit in the early 60's change Gandalf. I think it is sufficient to the discussion that Gandalf became more serious toward the end of the Hobbit on the merits of the thing growing from a 13 Dwarf gambit into a touchy inter-cultural (and inter-species) negotiation in which justice and compassion became issues. That is enough for me to understand the seriousness in Gandalf after Smaug is killed. Therefore, it seems to me that we can dispense with such considerations as the white counsel and getting rid of Sauron for making the wizard more serious, being add-ins due to LotR. As to the term "Nordic Wizard," I have a problem. "European" doesn't suffice because a Celtic magician is not the same thing, for example. The whole milieu of the Celtic mythos has a different feel. The Wizard introduced early in The Hobbit is not druidic ala Celtic. There are, however consonances between Gandalf and Merlin of the Arthurian legends, and we know that the Arthurian legends are derived from the Celtic. This can be accounted for because the writers of the Arthurian tales did have a European sensibility as opposed to a purely Celtic. At any rate, what I'm really getting at is that the Wizard introduced in the beginning of The Hobbit could have jumped out of a fairy tale by Jacob Grimm. So could the Dwarves. I can imagine Arthur Rackham doing some fascinating sketches of The Unexpected Party. Legate, I remain unconvinced by the "personality growth" argument. It isn't necessary to explain Gandalf's seriousness toward the end of The Hobbit. Nor does it apply (to my mind) to the differences in Gandalf because he is Istari in LotR. We're not talking about a personality change at all. Gandalf really doesn't change in character, except to be known better. What changes is the evocation of the Wizard at the hands of the author, as a wizard. We have essentially two different wizards. They're close enough in their evocation that we readily accept the change. Nevertheless, gone is the Germanic (better word?) wizard of European lore and legend, and present is Tolkien's Olorin, a Maiar and Istari who is, frankly, immortal though incarnated. The wizard in The Unexpected Party may not be your average human being, may not be human at all .... but he might be, and most certainly he is mysterious. The feel is completely different. Note the difference from the language itself: Olorin, Istari, Maiar ... versus Gandalf, wizard, seeming positively sorcerous. Language is, Tolkien told us, the means of incantation.