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Old 04-22-2007, 10:05 AM   #392
Boromir88
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Sardy, in this case of Balrogs' wings I would have to disagree. As there is no ambiguity, it's all right there in the way Tolkien writes the scene.

Quote:
Seriously, though most depictions of angels in western culture are man shaped and winged ..and winged with wings which could not possibly be capable of flight .. maybe they are symbolic wings...~Mith
They could very well be symbolic wings...symbolic of what I really have no idea. I mean Tolkien referred to his maiar as angels, that doesn't mean the Maiar had wings. His Balrogs were 'demons' that doesn't mean they had horns and hooves...same for the werewolves who were 'demonic wolves.'

Anyway, there shouldn't be any doubt that Durin's Bane did not have literal wings. Just look at the language and the structure of the scene as Tolkien writes:

Quote:
"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."
This is saying the shadow (not the Balrog! - a very important point) reached out like two wings. There is no argument that this is a simile, it uses the word 'like' and comparing the shadow reaching out like two wings.
Then comes:
Quote:
"it's wings were spread from wall to wall."
This is simply Tolkien using language to the great skill that he does to keep the comparison going. How can I say this with certainty because Tolkien has done it before. (And yes I'm repeating myself here because yet again it has gone unresponded to and ignored like it doesn't even matter):

(From the Akallabeth):
Quote:
"And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle"
There's the simile, a great cloud was shaped as if it was an eagle. Same structure as 'and it's shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.'
Than one moment later Tolkien directly refers to the 'clouds' as 'eagle':
Quote:
"And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud."
Just as a moment later, Tolkien directly refers to 'the shadow of the Balrog' as wings...as he had already previously established the metaphor.

The problem isn't with whether one believes Balrogs have wings or not. But seeing as this is a forum, we are to discuss, debate, and argue our views. And seeing that this is the 'books' forum, I would expect a bit more 'scholarly' debate than images from D&D books and everything being simply disregarded under the word 'symbolic' (no offense meant to either of you). It is however, frustrating to try and get a discussion going, then having everything you just posted cast aside with a few words. I've wondered why discussion has slowed down lately in the books forum, and I think I just found the answer. Instead of debating the topic and trying to understand the other side, we (I include myselfh ere too) have all gotten lazy and just cast everything aside as 'I'll believe whatever I want and no one can convince me otherwise.' If that's going to be the way discussions are handled on this forum (the books), I lose all motivation to post. As there really is no more purpose to post if no one is willing to think about and consider all relevant arguments.
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