[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The other question has to do with what it is exactly that people fear. Do they fear any possible pain in the cessation of life? Or do they fear the "afterlife", having been inculcated with horrific visions of physical torment in a lake of burning fire? I thought that the afterlife was a complete unknown in Middle-earth rather than a scene of retribution and punishment.

If they didn't know, then this would be obviously the well-known "fear of the unknown", which is, as we know, the worst. However, I think that the horrific scenes are just what Morgoth put before the men: if we consider the Day of Doom, which was said to come at the end of times, the Númenoreans wouldn't probably have to be afraid of dying if they were OK, but when they didn't have peace with Valar (and Eru), it is logical that they were afraid, and if there were some gossips from Morgoth about terrific scenes after death, then I quite understand them. However, they were not right because the Powers wished good for them (which they, poor folks, at that time did not know, losing contact with them) - or maybe actually, they might have been right about that now they had something to fear about: at least Ar-Pharazon "buried in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Day of Doom" seems he had much to fear about (or maybe his punishment was enough?)

Okay, back to the original question... I think there is something we need to make clear. Just a little bit of a revision. (Who does not want to waste time or on the other hand who wants to make a mess in the thread by posting something which does not make sense, stop reading here and jump right onto next post.) What is actually the question we are trying to anwer here?

If the question is simply "Why did Eru let the innocent die", then if we consider ourselves in the world of Middle-Earth, then we have probably nothing to say, after all, it is Eru's world, not ours. We just live there because he created us, and let us live our human, elvish, hobbit... lives there, to care of our ships, groves, gardens, whatever we like...
If we consider ourselves outside of the world, as mere watchers, and we consider the story living its own life, we also have nothing to care about. We are just watchers (readers) and the world has a life of its own, once again, we are just "visitors", or even less. I think a serious Tolkien fan will not be content to end simply just with this conclusion

If the question we are trying to solve here is "Is Eru really good and just or is he, perhaps just a little bit, evil", well, that's something more. This question would ultimately mean: is Middle-Earth an ultimately good world, or is it not? Once more I think a serious Tolkien fan will be sure that it is, and Tolkien himself said it many times. (And just look Břicho's one-sentence post above.) I know, I am silly to even mention it, I think to every Tolkien reader it must be obvious.*

So now: is the question we are trying to answer "How is it possible that Eru, being good, did allow the innocent to die?" Lalwendë posted before that it seems we are trying to "justify" Eru's act. How does it go together with the image of someone ultimately good and just that the innocent die? Now you probably await some shocking revelation in which I explain it. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't know. But this is what I wanted to say: this is the question which I'd like us to answer on this thread. Eru is ultimately good (statement). Innocent die (statement). How does this go together? Point.

Just a little suggestion at the end: were not the drowned children (with small c) his Children (with big C) as well? Do you think he was not sad when they died? (I think it is not necessary to explain the terms of "loss" and "destruction of many good things" in the context of Middle-Earth) I'm pretty sure he was. So, why did he kill them.

*Note: if anyone thinks otherwise, I think it'd be better to start a new thread for it: "Is Middle-Earth/Eru good?" But since Tolkien says it's good, we probably just have to believe that it is, and now try to think, how is that possible if it doesn't seem to make sense to you.