[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing: This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

As per the Myths Transformed, Morgoth's spirit (after his body was executed by Mandos himself) was 100% thrown out of Ea - outside of Time and Space even:

Morgoth was thus actually 'made captive in physical form' and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and 'executed': that is 'killed' like one of the Incarnates.

But the most pertinent part of this discussion comes from just a few lines below the above quote:

We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

*[footnote to the text]: Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

All of these quotes come from Morgoth's Ring, 'Myths Transformed', Text VII, p. 403


While I'm well aware that the cosmology in the MT is profoundly different than that in the Ambarkanta, I still think we should keep some of these passages - especially Morgoth's banishment outside of Time and Space (i.e. the metaphysical Void, and not just the outer space), even though I'm in favor of having a faaaar larger Ea (that is, space outside of Arda).


Of course, we should delete the references to the Solar System and such.