[Lily Bracegirdle]

Lobelia,

I always read that passage as a command, not a plea --"If I do this stupid thing for you, then you'd better show me some respect when I get back" but I can see how others might feel differently. No, actually what I'm mainly referring to is the circumstances, not those words. Denethor knows that Faramir does what he thinks is best without being overly influenced by what Denethor wants. Yes, Faramir knows what his father wants, but he won't just go along with it blindly.

From the same scene:

"Faramir told his tale, with his eyes for the most part on Gandalf..."

Later, Faramir speaks:

" 'I hope I have not done ill?' He looked at his father.
'Ill!' cried Denethor, and his eyes flashed suddenly. ... 'Your bearing is lowly in my presence, yet it is long now since you turned from your own way at my counsel. See, you have spoken skillfully, as ever; but I, have I not seen your eye fixed on Mithrandir, seeking whether you said well or too much? He has long had your heart in his keeping.'"

" 'If what I have done displeases you, my father,' said Faramir quietly, 'I wish I had known your counsel before the burden of so weighty a judgement was thrust on me.'
'Would that have availed to change your judgement?' said Denethor. 'You would have done just so, I deem. I know you well."

"'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'
'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'
For a moment Faramir's restraint gave way. [He's angry, not heartbroken!] 'I would ask you, my father, to remember why it was that I, and not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.'" [Faramir is rubbing Denethor's nose in it!]

After Faramir goes to Osgiliath the narration says: "Faramir did not go by his own choosing. But the Lord of the City was master of his Council, and he was in no mood that day to bow to others " Then it goes on to describe how Faramir and the council argued with Denethor, to no avail.

Denethor says "'I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought -- not if there is a captain here who has still the courage to do his lord's will.' [He's basically saying: I'm the boss, and if you don't do what I say, it's because you're a sissy-boy and not as good as your brother.]
Then all were silent. But at length [after having a think about it] Faramir said: 'I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead -- if you command it. [I don't think the "command" part was in the movie.]
'I do so,' said Denethor.
'Then Farewell!' said Faramir. 'But if I should return, think better of me!'"

Book Faramir's relationship with Denethor is much more a battle of wills between intellectual equals, whereas Movie-Faramir is just a sad boy who'll do almost anything for a scrap of approval. Book Faramir goes on the mission not to please his father, but because he has been ORDERED to do so, and also because his pride is a bit stung I think. It's one of those "Fine, but you'll be sorry when I'm dead!" moments.

For these reasons, I don't think Book Faramir would have blindly supported his father if Aragorn and Denethor had both survived the War. Faramir is capable of judging his father's decisions wrong and following his own conscience. Whether he's capable of outright treason is another question, but I don't doubt that Faramir would back Aragorn's claim.

-Lily