[Elfstone]

Originally posted by Legolas
Your point about the characters is entirely irrelevant.

How silly of me to use what the characters in the book say and do to draw conclusions from. Since none of them has ever seen Sauron it's a wonder they even know he exists.

Gandalf could not withstand a battle with all of the Nazgul, nor could Radagast. Nor could any incarnate! This would hold true for Sauron as well if they were not his servants under his control.

Ok, but I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm not sure why you continue to refer to Narya. The Elven Rings are not described as having any power in war whatsoever. They preserve.

I bring up Narya because it is a source of power. I'm not all that well versed on the Elven Rings, so I'm not sure what exactly you think Gandalf was preserving with it other than himself. But certainly Cirdan gave it to him for his 'aid and comfort' and because 'in all it will support thee and defend thee of weariness.' Perhaps not a weapon of war, but certainly something that enchanced him, no?

I disagree here, and so do all accounts of Sauron's activity..... Never once is he mentioned actually physically fighting..

So far as I know, Tolkien didn't write the complete biography of Sauron. 'All accounts' are few and far between when judged in the scope of time that Sauron was in the world. But since the point is speculation on my part, I'll concede it.

Elendil and Gil-galad defeated him *with* his Ring, but you think Gandalf could not defeat him *without* his Ring? I cannot see this logic.

Elendil and Gil-Galad defeated who, when? I wasn't there, but I remember a dead Elendil, and a dead Gil-Galad. It was the war machine of Elendil and Gil-Galad that defeated Sauron, not the one on one type of battle I've been talking about.

Tolkien *did* say Gandalf could beat Sauron. It could go the other way too, but the fact remains, Gandalf could beat Sauron. He had the ability to. He could have. Tolkien said so; Tolkien created this world and decides such things. How is this disputed?

Unless someone else has been posting and deleting before I could read it, no one is disputing that Gandalf could defeat Sauron. Assuming that you mean me, I'm pretty sure that one of the things you didn't quote from my last post was

Of course he has a chance to do it.

The bone of contention is that you seem to think it's a forgone conclusion, whereas I think that someone should abe to survive a brawl with a balrog before they consider themselves ready to move on to the Dark Lord. But in any case, I'm guessing that the rest of the board is beginning to find our battle of semantics a bit tedious, and since I don't have any compelling evidence that Sauron absolutely and undeniably would beat Gandalf one on one, and that seems to be the only way I'll get any quarter from you at all, I respectfully retire from the discussion.