[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You made the indefensible claim that both Gandalf and Elrond knew of Tom Bombadil's origins without question.

I never made the claim that you accuse me of. Point out the post where you think you find it. I did and do make the claim that neither Gandalf or Elrond make a claim that they did not did not know Tom’s origin.

Here is the original post: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=46. I was questioning your source for a claim that you made. You have not provided one in my opinion. You could easily satisfy me with an answer that I would accept.

You were not misquoted. What you have is a comprehension problem. You somehow want to divorce "Middle-earth" from the "narrative", the story itself and how Tolkien chose to arrange it. The statement Tom “is an important character within Middle-earth” is debatable, but that he was unimportant to the story as a narrative is not.

The first statement within quotation marks is indeed what I said. The following statement is a reasonable paraphrase of what Tolkien said. You find them different enough that you find the first debatable and the second not so. I agree. You really ought to be more careful about attributing a quotation to me that I did not say. Yes, you misquoted me.

No, Tom as an intentional enigma is not similar to every other character in the book.

I did not post that Tom was not similar to every other character in the book, though I agree with the statement. What is your purpose in attributing to me something I have never said but agree with?

Every other character in the book has an origin and history. There are complete genealogies of many characters. There is a whole creation mythos wherein Tom does not fit. I can reply "so what" to most of your argument.

Probably true enough, if you ignore unnamed characters. Tom fits well enough, it seems to me. We are told that he is fatherless, much the same as we are told this of Beleg.

Again, you want to divorce the narrative, and now the original poem (which originally had nothing to do with Middle-earth), from the Ainulindalë. How about you prove Bombadil's origin within the constraints of Arda. I posit you cannot.

I am not sure what you mean by “the constraints of Arda”. Tom’s own account of his origin is on page 131 of Fellowship. Elrond adds some information on page 265 of Fellowship, current edition. Tom does not appear in the “Ainulindalë” as I’m sure you know, nor in the “Valaquenta”. Nor does Ungoliant or Gothmog. In any case I don’t accept that Tom’s not being mentioned in The Silmarillion or in The Hobbit means anything more than, say, Saruman or Treebeard not being mentioned in The Silmarillion or in The Hobbit. I think that Tom’s appearance in three books of The Lord of the Rings and his being discussed at the Council of Elrond indicates that Tom’s origin was within the constraints of Arda, as much as anything can. Tom is also known of by Gildor and his companion elves.

Then stop replying with arguments when you can't comprehend what is being said.

I suspect this means that you yourself can’t figure out what you meant either.

I stated an opinion that Gandalf and Elrond are verbose based on the rambling narratives at the Council of Elrond. They do like to hear themselves talk, and they do like to disembogue a font of their knowledge. Elrond talks for hours regarding the Ring, its history, the history of Numenor, and details his own origin, "even as Elrond himself set it down in his books of lore". "Books of lore" -- a prolific writer of histories, and yet short shrift given to the enigma Bombadil. Just because that opinion does not jibe with your pompous pronouncements does not mean it is false.

It doesn’t mean that my opinion is not true either. You again ignore that neither Elrond nor Gandalf are recorded as saying anything about the states of beings or origins of Men, Elves, Orcs, Wizards, Hobbits, Ents, or various other beings at the Council. Ignore away. But why, why, why do you make such a deal that they did not discuss more about the state of being or origin of Tom at the Council?

Elrond is unsure if Bombadil is even the same as the being he knew previously.

Then Elrond is shown to apparently accept that they are the same.

"Older than old" denotes a lack of a set starting point and no parameter at all, historically-speaking.

Except that Elrond also mentions once knowing Bombadil, which does work as a starting point for Elrond. That Elrond at that point says that Tom was “older than old” indicates Tom’s age when Elrond first met Tom. You are surely only pretending not to understand this, not a good way to argue.

The term "fatherless" is indeed indicative of not knowing an origin.

Or it means Tom actually had no father.

Add in the fact Elrond refers to Bombadil as a "strange creature", again indicative of not being able to categorize a being with any specifics, shows beyond speculation that Elrond does not know what the hell a Bombadil is.

But Tom, in The Lord of the Rings, is a strange creature. You ignore that, pretending that an Elvish loremaster would not say this, when the book attributes these words to him. Seems to me that Tolkien is more trustworthy than you are in these matters. If Tom was not one of the People of the Valar, he would not properly be called a Maia, though possibly of the same origin. And Úmaia seems to mean one of the People of Morgoth. If so, that name would not do. Tom seems to be unique, and the term strange creature does well enough for me, and apparently did well enough for Tolkien.

Unless you have something new to add, I don’t see any point in my continuing this discussion, because you appear to be more interested in speculating than providing data, and your speculation is, to me, most unconvincing. Trying to demonstrate that Elrond’s words only make sense when interpreted by you doesn’t work for me.

And to repeat: Tolkien’s beliefs about Tom Bombadil have nothing at all to say about whether Tolkien may or may not have believed that Elrond or Gandalf knew Tom’s origin, even if Tolkien himself did not.

And I have never believed that either Gandalf or Elrond said anything about Tom’s origin at the Council of Elrond. Any argument from that is indeed an argument from silence because Gandalf and Elrond don’t say anything on the matter, nor should they be expected to, whatever they might be supposed to have known.