Quote:
Originally Posted by Andsigil
I admit that it's more than possible that I've misjudged this. Yet, that (out-of-character) passage which Zigūr quoted, from Morgoth's Ring is a little difficult to reconcile with the (in-character) passages from The Silmarillion:
No?
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... nope.
Not to me, rather. My reading of the combined passages is this:
-Manwe, unlike most of the Ainur, understood that all evil will turn to good in time. (
Morgoth's Ring)
-When confronted by Melkor's evil, he at first conceived of the prospective good as a deliberate, joint effort between the Eldar and the Valar. He therefore counselled that the Noldor should remain. (
Silm 9 - 1)
--Remember that previously, the big 'turn to good' moments have mostly been by the active participation of the Valar. The demiurgic wars of creation were made right when Almaren was built. The wrack of the Lamps brought about Yavanna's creation of the Trees. Melkor's dominion led to Varda's creation of the new stars, the awakening of the Eldar, and ultimately Melkor's captivity. Yes, there are small things, like the formation of ice and snow, but in the grand scale, 'evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come' had been about Melkor breaking things, and the Valar restoring them better than before.
-When Feanor's reply reached Manwe, he had a moment of revelation: sometimes, the turn to good was
not his to shape. He had tried his strategy, but - for the first time - a people not under direct Melkorian influence had defied him. His world-view didn't change, but his understanding of it did. (
Silm 11)
--He tells us this directly. The songs of the Noldor will be 'beauty not before conceived' - ie, not only the Noldor, but the Valar themselves had no conception of the heights the rebel Eldar could reach.
-The Doom of Mandos is in another mode, and comes from a different mind. While Manwe is contemplating the Good to come, Mandos is thinking of the Evil that has already been done, and the Evil that yet will come of it. He says as much, in direct reply to Manwe's comments about 'evil yet be good to have been'.
And yet remain evil, the Doomsman bluntly points out.
It's easy to imagine Manwe and Namo arguing over this during their councils, with the Windlord inclined to forgive everything because It'll All Come Right, and Namo arguing for longer and longer incarceration for dead Noldor so It Doesn't Happen Again. And then Ulmo shows up and berates the both of them for not doing anything about that advancing Numenorean fleet...
hS