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Originally Posted by davem
Certainly in M-e its true that 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory', but is that true in the primary world?
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil
It is an over-simplification to say that in Middle-earth 'evil choices lead to self-defeat, whereas self-sacrificing choices lead to victory'. Yes, this is true to an extent - but it does not mitigate the Long Defeat.
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There is a certain tension between faith in an ultimate spiritual victory, and the pessimism of "The Long Defeat". I think it's a very relatable tension, and one that makes the spiritual elements of LotR all the more believable. The promise of eternal bliss may ring hollow while we're down here suffering in the muck.
But within a spiritual context, one can argue (I daresay Tolkien might argue) that self-sacrifice always leads to (spiritual) victory, even if within the bounds of time and the material world it yields an apparent defeat. There is the grace of the act itself -- of serving others; then there are the (often unknowable) consequences of the act, however small, within the grand scheme of things.
These ideas sounded more coherent when they were in my head.
Still, pressing on:
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Originally Posted by drigel
There is no "happily ever after" in that example that you gave. There was none for Frodo either.
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Except that Frodo's journey didn't end with his voyage West; in a way, it was only beginning.