[The Saucepan Man]

Heavens but it's a job participating on this thread. Just as I've absorbed one set of views and forumulated (I rather like that typo ) my responses, a whole new set of them comes along.

Then take for example; people who don't believe in Eru (God?), wouldn't think of Gollum's fall other than the fact that it was an accident, or that Tolkien wanted it that way. Eruism, which comes from Eru, the creator of Eä, wouldn't mean anything to a person who has no personal belief, or simply don't consider Eru as a God, a creator. (Novnarwen)

I would disagree. Just because one doesn't believe in the existence of God in the real (primary) world, it does not follow that one cannot appreciate the importance of Eru within the sub-created world. And I now rather subscribe to Fordim's view that, even if someone who is not deeply religious is unaware of the role of Eru when he reads LotR, he will still receive from the text a strong sense of providence (on a subconscious level at least). The text implies that "something" made Gollum fall at that moment, just as "something" made Bilbo find the Ring, whatever that "something" may be.

They chose to accept the Rings of Power and to keep them. Insofar as you talk about the reader being “bound by what is said in the text unless he himself chooses” to exercise his or her free will – you are describing not just Melkor in response to Eru, but the Nazgûl to Sauron and, I would suggest, that instinct in us as readers to say “my individual truths are not equal to the intended Truth of the Creator of Middle-Earth, so He must tell me what the Truth is.”(Fordim Hedgethistle)

Point of order M'lud! Melkor had numerous opportunities to repent (and indeed pretended to do so on at least one occasion), as did Sauron. Yes, the Nazgul chose to take the Rings but, from the moment that they did, there was no going back. I see what you are saying: The "Nazgul-reader" is "ensorceled" (is that a word?) into the view that he must abide by the author's "truth" and is then effectively bound by that view. But surely he's not really bound. Surely he does still have the choice to break the spell and adopt a different approach to his interpretation of the author's works.

Your Nazgul-reader might just as well be labelled a Frodo/Gandalf-reader. His initial reaction is to follow his own interpretation, just as Frodo's initial reaction was that Bilbo should have killed Gollum when he had the chance. But Gandalf (the reader's wiser side) counsel's him in the "Eruistic" ("Eruian"?) way of mercy (acceptance of the author's own interpretation).

And I think the premise you are working from is simply wrong. (davem)

In whose eyes is it wrong? Yours maybe. But presumably you would not regard the efforts of Christopher Tolkien, who was seeking to acheive much the same thing when he compiled the Silmarillion, in the same way, or would you dismiss the published Silmarillion as ultimately valueless?

And it is certainly not wrong in the eyes of those undertaking the project, who clearly regard it as a worthwhile endeavour. And not necessarily in the eyes of others, some of whom will be interested to read it.

Lost Tales was not written as a first draft of the post LotR Sil. It was a work which expressed Tolkien's desires at the time it was written. His desires had changed when he came to write the Sil in the 30's, so it was a different work. When he returned to the legends in the post LotR period, he was again writing something entirely different. (davem)

That is a very good point, though. Does it perhaps point to a fundamental flaw in Tolkien's approach that he was unable to finalise one text written at one point in time reflecting his world-view at that time and then move onto another text (and perhaps another sub-created world) in order to express his changing views. Why did he feel the need to continue to express his developing perpsective on the primary world in the same sub-created world using (broadly) the same characters, and generally by re-working the same tales? He was able to conjure up other sub-created worlds (witness the tales of Farmer Giles, Smith and Niggle). If he had adopted this approach to all his works, he may well have published a lot more within his lifetime. But where would that leave Middle-earth? Would it still hold the same "enchantment"?

There simply isn't a 'canonical' Silmarillion - its the fox that isn't there.

Assuming that one excludes the published Silmarillion from Tolkien's "canon" (and, like Lord of Angmar, I can see the force in this argument), then the closest that one can get to a "canonical" Silmarillion, I suppose, is the form which it was in when LotR was published. The reason being that it is this form of the text which will represent the history on which LotR, which is part of the "canon", was based.

That's all for now folks. More later, undoubtedly ...