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Old 10-26-2004, 07:16 PM   #24
The Saucepan Man
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The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Silmaril Some scattered thoughts ...

... provoked by the Chapter and the previous discussion.

But first, I must start with an apology - to Aragorn. I rather agreed with the notion that Aragorn displayed foolhardiness in his charge against the Balrog, assuming that (being versed in Elven lore) he would know its nature. That assumption, however, appears to have been incorrect:


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"An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before." said Aragorn. "It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible."
It seems that, though he may have heard legends of Balrogs, he did not recognise this one as such.


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Originally Posted by Bęthberry
She has a husband, but as Estelyn and Aiwendil suggest, his depiction is mixed--Galadriel even 'corrects' him at one point, does she not?
Poor old Celeborn! She actually corrects him twice. Bęthberry referred to Galadriel admonishing his rashness in suggesting that Gandalf fell into folly. But there is also this only moments earlier:


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When all the guests were seated before his chair, the Lord looked at them again. "Here there are eight," he said. "Nine were to set out: so said the messages. But maybe there has been some change of counsel that we have not heard. Elrond is far away, and darkness gathers between us, and all this year the shadows have grown longer."

"Nay, there was no change of counsel," said the Lady, speaking for the first time. Her voice was clear and musical but deeper than woman's wont. "Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land ..."
I must say that I find the character of Celeborn rather curious. He is referred to by Galadriel as being "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth" and yet with her first words she corrects him and goes on to jump down his throat for speaking rashly, something that he acknowledges and subsequently apologises for. And although he is the first to greet the Fellowship, Galadriel very quickly "takes command" as the central figure in Lothlorien and, of course, in this Chapter. She also describes him as a "giver of gifts beyond the power of kings", yet is she who, in the next Chapter, bestows gifts on the Fellowship (including one very much beyond the power of kings: the Phial).

I can't really put my finger on it, but Celeborn somehow comes across in this Chapter as rather "impotent", particularly in comparison with his Lady. And this seems to me to be rather a strange depiction for the Lord of such a great realm and the husband of such a powerful Lady (not to mention the wisest Elf of Middle-earth). Perhaps this is somehow related to Child's impression of Galadriel being almost genderless. Is Celeborn too genderless in the same sense? Perhaps their status and the length of their time together has somehow obviated the need for overt gender roles and rendered harmless the kind of petty admonishments that might cause ructions in a marriage of mortals. I do recall reading on a thread here that Tolkien described Elvish marriages as moving to a state, once children had been borne, whereby the partners have little interest in sexual matters. I may be misremembering here, so feel free to correct me, but that would certainly lessen the importance of one aspect of gender roles in a marriage as long lasting as that of Galadriel and Celeborn.

And, while on this topic, it is worth noting the description of Galadriel's voice in the quote given above. It has both masculine (powerful?) and feminine (intuitive?) aspects, being "deeper than woman's wont" and yet "clear and musical". This would support Child's theory of her as a genderless (gender neutral?) character. Also, the "music" in her voice might be identified with her magic, a connection which has been noted in previous discussions.

As for Galadriel's magic and its comparison with that of Sauron, it is I think worth quoting from Letter #155 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien (a draft letter to Naomi Mitchison). Apologies for the length, but it all seems relevant:


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I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and other show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a psuedo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy.' Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life.'

Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive and evil effects - because 'magicians,' who have become chiefly concerned to use magia for their own power, would do so (do do so). The basic motive for magia - quite apart from any philosophic consideration of how it would work - is immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap between the idea or desire and the result or effect. But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means. Of course another factor then comes in, a moral or pathological: the tyrant lose sight of objects, become cruel, and like smashing, hurting, and defiling as such. It would no doubt be possible to defend poor Lotho's introduction of more efficient mills; but not of Sharkey and Sandyman's use of them.
So Tolkien is here saying that both sides use magia, or "physical" magic, and goeteia, or "illusionary" magic. The Girdle of Melian, and perhaps the magic used by Galadriel to protect Lothlorien, might be described as "illusionary", in that it could “deceive or bewilder” mortals. Galadriel's Mirror might be similarly described. It certainly had the potential to deceive or bewilder Sam and Frodo, had Galadriel not been present to guide them. The difference, therefore, is not in the nature of the magic, but in the purpose to which it is put. Sauron and his minions use their magic to pursue dominion, whereas Galadriel's magic, like that of Gandalf, is used for beneficial effect, to guide and inform rather than to coerce, and also to offer hope and invigorate spirit (in the case of the Phial, for example, and also Lembas and Miruvor). Save in the destruction of Dol Guldur, I cannot think of one occasion where Galadriel's magic is used "actively" to command or destroy (and Gandalf only uses his magic in this way in extreme circumstances).

It is interesting too that Galadriel herself does not have full control over the Mirror:


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Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal," she answered, "and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold."
So, in the case of the Mirror, Galadriel is unable to command it to show that which might be most beneficial, let alone use it to command others. Although her breath "activates" it, her primary power here is to guide Sam and Frodo concerning the visions that it shows to them. And that, it seems to me, is more a matter of wisdom, empathy and intuition than magic.

Finally, I think that we come more closely to understand the peril of Lothlorien in this Chapter. As Fordim noted in the discussion of the pervious Chapter, there is danger in the potential for Galadriel to succumb to the Ring. But the greatest peril for each member of the Fellowship individually lies in Galadriel's testing of them. As davem says:


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She seeks to know the hearts of the Company, principally for their own good: they need to know themselves, to confront their own motives & desires.
Yet, there is peril for any member of the Fellowship who does not remain true - who cannot overcome their motives and desires, having confronted them. As we know, there is one member of the Fellowship who is unable to do so, and he practically gives himself away:


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Well, have a care!" said Boromir. "I do not feel too sure of this Elvish Lady and her purposes"
Having (correctly) recognised that she was testing the Fellowship, tempting them by "offering what she pretended to have the power to give", he expresses suspicion as to her purposes. Typical Boromir! He has been tested and found wanting, but refuses to recognise this, believing (or rather deceiving himself) that it is Galadriel's motives which are suspect, not his.

And as if to emphasise the point, Aragorn repeats the line, almost word for word, from the previous Chapter:


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"Speak no evil of the Lady Galadriel!" said Aragorn sternly. "You know not what you say. There is in her and in this land no evil, unless a man bring it hither himself. Then let him beware!"
Once again, the comment is directed at Boromir. And once again, I wonder how much Aragorn suspects concerning the “evil“ in Boromir‘s heart and the course of action which it is likely to lead him to pursue. In any event, I shall certainly be keeping a close eye on Aragorn's interaction with him more closely from now on.
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Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 10-26-2004 at 07:21 PM.
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