[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by C7A

One last impression.... We often speak of Galadriel as the prime example of a powerful female character in LotR. Yet sometimes I wonder about this. To me, at times, she seems almost genderless, if such a thing is possible. (Perhaps this ties in with the Virgin Mary, an issue that others can better address?)

Does anyone else view Galadriel as "genderless", or do you see her in a different, more feminine, light?

Mary is often considered the absolute ideal of motherhood, hence, definitely not genderless. If (to preclude confusion and facilitate discussion) I may summarize the main differing views, so that those who are not Catholic-- especially our beloved and passionate protestants-- might have a doorway to Tolkien's likely outlook, in the hopes that there might be respectful understanding all around. First, a verse often discussed regarding of Mary's virginity is Matthew 1:24 & 25

Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.

Both sides agree that Mary and Joseph were, clearly, separate 'til Jesus was born and that Joseph has no genetic claim to Jesus. But afterward? The key phrase that gets argued over (and over and over-- but of course, not here on the Downs ) is: "did not know her til she had brought forth ", the key word being 'til'. Upon this little three-letter word hinges great and profound matters into which we will not delve on the Downs, but here is the essence of the debate:

Catholics hold that not only didn't Joseph know mary 'til" she brought forth her firstborn son, but that Joseph didn't know her afterwards, either. In contrast, Protestants hold that once Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph entered into normal marital relations and Mary had children after Jesus. In order to support this they often refer to Mark 6:3, as follows:

Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?”

Catholics respond saying that "brothers and sisters" are debatable terms and may also refer to half-brothers, half-sisters, and/ or cousins. Protestants reply: "Half brothers, yes; they both had Mary as a mother, but Jesus' father was God, and the rest had Joseph as a father." Catholics reply, "No, these were children of Joseph by a previous marriage, and half-brothers via the name of Joseph only."

I don't know Greek so don't ask me.

Okay, so that's the debate and we can leave it there, right? (Right?) So, why on earth do I bring all this up, risking wrath all around, from Protestants, Catholics, AND The Barrow Wight to boot?

Because either way you look at it, Mary had a houseful of children. Either they were Joseph's by a previous marriage, in which case she generously adopted and cared for Four Older Boys plus several sisters. (Yikes!) Or-- they were her own, and she bore them to Joseph. Whichever doctrinal approach you prefer, you must acknowledge the following: she had a houseful of children, for whom she cooked, cleaned, hauled water, did laundry, taught scriptures, prayed over them and with them, and all the rest of those things that hebrew families did in those days; she was very family oriented and very maternal. Hence very feminine. Just to show that all this is no mistake, on Golgotha, John adopted her as his mother. John had known her for three years and was no fool... she must have been a great mom. Nothing genderless here.

She is clearly listed in Acts as being present in the upper room, which to me implies she was probably still there at Pentecost. Simply put, that means spiritual power, and a lot of it. Yet she is hardly mentioned again in Acts after that. Like Anna, one can easily imagine her devoting herself to a retired life of prayer and hidden power. So here we have a maternal, respected, powerful presence, yet reserved and retiring.

I would say the same thing about Galadriel. She exercises her queenly power by supernaturally protecting Lorien from the gaze of Sauron. She is a quiet power; reticent; hidden; yet formidable. Elrond is much easier to find and meet than Galadriel; all her power is hidden from sight. Yet neither does her power reduce her femininity. If I may jump forward to Ithilien, to recall Sam's description of her:

Originally Posted by Sam Gamgee

Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime. But that’s a lot o’ nonsense, and all wide of my mark. ..... But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she’s so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame.

Galadriel's power is here described as at once very deadly and very feminine. This reminds me of davem's comment that Galadriel would be loved first before she was feared. I think Sam, like Gimli, would have been at risk there.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Child; now to go back & read her dissertation