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Kuruharan · 08-21-2005, 02:42 PM

Does anybody have any idea what Zimmerman's Balrog looked (or would have looked) like?

If we could find that out I think we'd have our answer right there.

Just for the record (even though I think I've said this elsewhere) there are two primary objections I have to Balrog wings.

A) If the Balrog had wings that spread all the way across the 2nd Hall, how did it manage to get those wings into the Chamber of Mazarbul? This “folding” the wings business does not hold water because the Balrog has arms which would be mightily in the way of folding. And even so, hundreds of feet of wingspan are not going to just fold into a nice small package. They would at the very least have to be wrapped around the Balrog several score of times so that it would be essentially tied up. If the Balrog folds the wings on its back rather than its sides that is going to create one Udun of a pile of stuff on his back that is probably not going to easily fit through anything.

Besides if the Balrog has a wingspan a hundred feet wide then they will probably stretch far above its head when folded creating another set of problems in getting through doors.

B) If the Balrog had wings that spread all the way across the 2nd Hall, how did it manage to get the body necessary to support those wings into the Chamber of Mazarbul?

I've never seen a good response to these points. Usually when they are brought up the pro-wingers start humming and hawing and try to change the subject.

If one assumes no wings and a Balrog whose actual body was no more than 10-15 feet tall (and probably at the lower end of that), all problems with interpreting the texts suddenly vanish (like a Balrog falling into an abyss).

Also, I’m not so sure that most of the Fellowship, aside from Gandalf, really got a good look at the thing. It’s chief characteristic was it’s darkness. Darkness is a bit hard to see through. Note that when the Balrog takes a stab at Gandalf, the Fellowship can’t even see it’s flaming sword because of the shadow until it slices at Gandalf. I don’t think they could really see it.

Now, I'm perfectly well aware that all of these things have already been said, however, repetition and beating one's own chest are themes of this type of debate...so there!

EDIT: I used to be a member of the pro-wing camp but I found it impossible to successfully answer the above points and was thus forced to change my position.

08-21-2005, 02:42 PM	#197
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	Does anybody have any idea what Zimmerman's Balrog looked (or would have looked) like? If we could find that out I think we'd have our answer right there. Just for the record (even though I think I've said this elsewhere) there are two primary objections I have to Balrog wings. A) If the Balrog had wings that spread all the way across the 2nd Hall, how did it manage to get those wings into the Chamber of Mazarbul? This “folding” the wings business does not hold water because the Balrog has arms which would be mightily in the way of folding. And even so, hundreds of feet of wingspan are not going to just fold into a nice small package. They would at the very least have to be wrapped around the Balrog several score of times so that it would be essentially tied up. If the Balrog folds the wings on its back rather than its sides that is going to create one Udun of a pile of stuff on his back that is probably not going to easily fit through anything. Besides if the Balrog has a wingspan a hundred feet wide then they will probably stretch far above its head when folded creating another set of problems in getting through doors. B) If the Balrog had wings that spread all the way across the 2nd Hall, how did it manage to get the body necessary to support those wings into the Chamber of Mazarbul? I've never seen a good response to these points. Usually when they are brought up the pro-wingers start humming and hawing and try to change the subject. If one assumes no wings and a Balrog whose actual body was no more than 10-15 feet tall (and probably at the lower end of that), all problems with interpreting the texts suddenly vanish (like a Balrog falling into an abyss). Also, I’m not so sure that most of the Fellowship, aside from Gandalf, really got a good look at the thing. It’s chief characteristic was it’s darkness. Darkness is a bit hard to see through. Note that when the Balrog takes a stab at Gandalf, the Fellowship can’t even see it’s flaming sword because of the shadow until it slices at Gandalf. I don’t think they could really see it. Now, I'm perfectly well aware that all of these things have already been said, however, repetition and beating one's own chest are themes of this type of debate...so there! EDIT: I used to be a member of the pro-wing camp but I found it impossible to successfully answer the above points and was thus forced to change my position. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 08-21-2005 at 02:52 PM.