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Man-of-the-Wold · 09-13-2002, 12:42 AM

Well the are some incongruities that this raises.

MIDDLE-EARTH TRADE - FIRST INCONGRUITY

One is of commerce and the fact that in the LoTR one gets an image of a cut off world with relatively little in the way of trade, but I think that some of that is of recent cause (and overemphasized for dramatic effect) in that the war in Ithilien has only lately gotten hot, and Bilbo's time in the Hobbit was two human generations earlier.

But still, despite the distances across essentially uninhabited lands it is not unreasonable to have trade of certain commodities. Clearly, in the years after Smaug, dwarves and men are conducting business from Dorwinion to Bree. And, all that coastline was surely plied in a simple way. The elves of Lindon needn't have been completely isolated and through intermediaries could have traded with others by sea, and certainly with certain more mercantile-inclined Hobbits, such as Farmer Maggot. With Bilbo and Frodo we have independently wealthy types not really engaged beyond the final purchase.

So, what I think you have is an early-late Middle-Ages model where most economic activity is decidedly local and agrarian, and that's fine for almost all needs and wants. But various things that are not too bulky are traded up and down the line through intermediaries, whose markups are very modest my modern standards. But clearly, something like coffee might have been a bit of luxury, but affordable for a Baggins or dwarves in the company of Thorin Oakenshield of Durin's line. So, even if it came from Umbar or South Gondor, from folks who didn't give a camel's patooty about "The Dark Lord," between producer and consumer were many informal layers. Think of modern narcotics trade.

The biggest issue would not have been distance and communication, there are always folks ready to make the journey, and see if someone is interested in their goods. The real challenge would be the lack of clear monetary exchange and a reliance on barter, debts and some exchange of recognized units of species.

One thing that would suggest that interaction was until the last forty years of the Third Age not uncommon is the fact that Westron, the Common Tongue was so intelligible across so great an area of the Northwest Lands.

NOW WHERE WOULD THIS FIT INTO OUR HISTORY?

This incongruity is summed up by remembering this to be fantasy, that is beguiling non-fantastical, at times.

Clearly, Hobbits at least have rudimental clocks and other things that are technologically post-Medieval, and some of the footstuffs and fabrics are things that only entered European culture after extensive cntact with the Americas or the Orient.

Tolkien is not necessarily trying to create a Medieval world that ever necessarily existed. It is Middle-Earth not the Middle Ages.

Over more than six thousand years he is modeling military technology, political systems, codes of honor and so forth on a period of time that existed for all but two hundred years in the kingdoms of Alba, Cumbria, Mercia, Northumbria, Kent and Wessex.

He is looking at a very "English" world, not so much "Britain" that was Celtic and potentially Arthurian, and God forbid! ... not the Normanized world that most of us think of with Medieval England, but rather for the most part "Anglo-Saxon" which is what he taught, that nexus of fresh Christian fervor and Northern heroism.

Beyond this model, he is really in all else shooting for a merely pre-Industrial countryside world in terms of lifestyles, attitudes, culture and so forth. It is not so much primitive as rustic, and in some parts of Europe would not have been much different whether the year was 1900 or 490.

That some merchandise, metallurgy and devices in the Books were not widespread in Europe until the 17th Century, and yet things like cotton, printing and gunpowder are seemingly absent is curious, but it is a fantasy world, that is only like ours.

But in essence we underappreciate how little most peoples lives really changed for millenia before the Industrial Age of the mid 19th Century. The question is what does Tolkien capture and recast that is so dear about Middle-Earth, and whether or not in some deeper sense it reflects anything that really ever existed?

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

09-13-2002, 12:42 AM	#42
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Well the are some incongruities that this raises. MIDDLE-EARTH TRADE - FIRST INCONGRUITY One is of commerce and the fact that in the LoTR one gets an image of a cut off world with relatively little in the way of trade, but I think that some of that is of recent cause (and overemphasized for dramatic effect) in that the war in Ithilien has only lately gotten hot, and Bilbo's time in the Hobbit was two human generations earlier. But still, despite the distances across essentially uninhabited lands it is not unreasonable to have trade of certain commodities. Clearly, in the years after Smaug, dwarves and men are conducting business from Dorwinion to Bree. And, all that coastline was surely plied in a simple way. The elves of Lindon needn't have been completely isolated and through intermediaries could have traded with others by sea, and certainly with certain more mercantile-inclined Hobbits, such as Farmer Maggot. With Bilbo and Frodo we have independently wealthy types not really engaged beyond the final purchase. So, what I think you have is an early-late Middle-Ages model where most economic activity is decidedly local and agrarian, and that's fine for almost all needs and wants. But various things that are not too bulky are traded up and down the line through intermediaries, whose markups are very modest my modern standards. But clearly, something like coffee might have been a bit of luxury, but affordable for a Baggins or dwarves in the company of Thorin Oakenshield of Durin's line. So, even if it came from Umbar or South Gondor, from folks who didn't give a camel's patooty about "The Dark Lord," between producer and consumer were many informal layers. Think of modern narcotics trade. The biggest issue would not have been distance and communication, there are always folks ready to make the journey, and see if someone is interested in their goods. The real challenge would be the lack of clear monetary exchange and a reliance on barter, debts and some exchange of recognized units of species. One thing that would suggest that interaction was until the last forty years of the Third Age not uncommon is the fact that Westron, the Common Tongue was so intelligible across so great an area of the Northwest Lands. NOW WHERE WOULD THIS FIT INTO OUR HISTORY? This incongruity is summed up by remembering this to be fantasy, that is beguiling non-fantastical, at times. Clearly, Hobbits at least have rudimental clocks and other things that are technologically post-Medieval, and some of the footstuffs and fabrics are things that only entered European culture after extensive cntact with the Americas or the Orient. Tolkien is not necessarily trying to create a Medieval world that ever necessarily existed. It is Middle-Earth not the Middle Ages. Over more than six thousand years he is modeling military technology, political systems, codes of honor and so forth on a period of time that existed for all but two hundred years in the kingdoms of Alba, Cumbria, Mercia, Northumbria, Kent and Wessex. He is looking at a very "English" world, not so much "Britain" that was Celtic and potentially Arthurian, and God forbid! ... not the Normanized world that most of us think of with Medieval England, but rather for the most part "Anglo-Saxon" which is what he taught, that nexus of fresh Christian fervor and Northern heroism. Beyond this model, he is really in all else shooting for a merely pre-Industrial countryside world in terms of lifestyles, attitudes, culture and so forth. It is not so much primitive as rustic, and in some parts of Europe would not have been much different whether the year was 1900 or 490. That some merchandise, metallurgy and devices in the Books were not widespread in Europe until the 17th Century, and yet things like cotton, printing and gunpowder are seemingly absent is curious, but it is a fantasy world, that is only like ours. But in essence we underappreciate how little most peoples lives really changed for millenia before the Industrial Age of the mid 19th Century. The question is what does Tolkien capture and recast that is so dear about Middle-Earth, and whether or not in some deeper sense it reflects anything that really ever existed? [ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ] __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.