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Cazoz · 10-30-2003, 06:23 PM

What serious notions of democracy do we see in ME? Sure, Sam was the Mayor seventeen hundred times but this was really just a micro-scale rural deal. What instances of democracy and election were there in the larger areas such as Rohan and Gondor. Both were monarchies, but loosely based on the British set up, would there have been a Prime Minister or just a group of advisers?

And how about amongst the Orcs? Were the leaders merely those who’d proved strongest and scrapped their way to the top, were they appointed or were they in fact elected in a crude show of hands? All of the other ’baddies’ such as Nazguls, Balrogs and Dragons were all in poltical power and status as they were in physical strength; hierarchical. However Orcs are more widespread and seem to have differing classes (and actually more free thought and less servility) so I wonder how their class system was constructed. Maybe in the structure of a very sloppy trade union, considering (in my opinion) they were written to represent the industrial working classes, careless and malevolent towards the countryside and hypnotised by the progress and the big smoke.

It seems that wisdom and age (and usually birth) were taken almost ubiquitously around ME to be a determinant of status and power, as even witnessed with our four hobbits. In this case, Pippin and Merry are in fact of better stock but Frodo was the leader throughout, being the oldest and arguably wisest. On our earth, we have very questionable elections all over the place (from America to Zimbabwe!) and I was thinking about whether there many examples of these in ME? I know there were examples of coups and usurpations in Numenor and Gondor during the SA and TA.

It would be presumptuous, but it seems that the Valar in their councils had some sort of democracy going on. Is this coincidental that they would have the most civilised way of making decisions in their society? This having been said, Manwe was their leader appointed by Eru, so the buck stopped with him. And regarding the Council of Elrond, it was clear from the start that Gandalf and Elrond had already had the Council amongst themselves, and were presenting what decision they'd already made or at least knew to instigate. I don't really see it as an example of democracy, Elrond and Gandalf were much too superior to the others in their presence (and they knew it!) and the Council was merely a briefing with a bit of cajolery.

10-30-2003, 06:23 PM	#1
Cazoz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 71	Democracy in ME? What serious notions of democracy do we see in ME? Sure, Sam was the Mayor seventeen hundred times but this was really just a micro-scale rural deal. What instances of democracy and election were there in the larger areas such as Rohan and Gondor. Both were monarchies, but loosely based on the British set up, would there have been a Prime Minister or just a group of advisers? And how about amongst the Orcs? Were the leaders merely those who’d proved strongest and scrapped their way to the top, were they appointed or were they in fact elected in a crude show of hands? All of the other ’baddies’ such as Nazguls, Balrogs and Dragons were all in poltical power and status as they were in physical strength; hierarchical. However Orcs are more widespread and seem to have differing classes (and actually more free thought and less servility) so I wonder how their class system was constructed. Maybe in the structure of a very sloppy trade union, considering (in my opinion) they were written to represent the industrial working classes, careless and malevolent towards the countryside and hypnotised by the progress and the big smoke. It seems that wisdom and age (and usually birth) were taken almost ubiquitously around ME to be a determinant of status and power, as even witnessed with our four hobbits. In this case, Pippin and Merry are in fact of better stock but Frodo was the leader throughout, being the oldest and arguably wisest. On our earth, we have very questionable elections all over the place (from America to Zimbabwe!) and I was thinking about whether there many examples of these in ME? I know there were examples of coups and usurpations in Numenor and Gondor during the SA and TA. It would be presumptuous, but it seems that the Valar in their councils had some sort of democracy going on. Is this coincidental that they would have the most civilised way of making decisions in their society? This having been said, Manwe was their leader appointed by Eru, so the buck stopped with him. And regarding the Council of Elrond, it was clear from the start that Gandalf and Elrond had already had the Council amongst themselves, and were presenting what decision they'd already made or at least knew to instigate. I don't really see it as an example of democracy, Elrond and Gandalf were much too superior to the others in their presence (and they knew it!) and the Council was merely a briefing with a bit of cajolery.