The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - The Balrog as the Loathly Lady from medieval literature.

monks · 08-11-2020, 10:38 AM

Guys, a reply to all 3 of you if I may

Ok, no worries Hui,

The meaning, his system is hidden BECAUSE?...it's all hidden right under our noses in the etymologies. c.f The Boatmen's Song example I posted. That accounts for most all of why his system has never been understood before now. HE HAS A SYSTEM. The Secret Grammar alluded to in 'A Secret Vice'. His system is based on planar geometry (fundamentally the triangle) which he took from Plato's Republic, on orientation (West-East, North-South opposites) and on the TURN which moves between those planes. Orientation was extremely important in the Ancient and medieval world- ie putting east at the top of maps etc. "To TURN TO" is all over Tolkien's works. He refers to planes and turns a massive number of times in his works and his letters. 'Plain' is also a favourite go-to word of his- which derives from plane. He disguises his reference to his private system in that way.

"miracle", "indisputable power". NO. Etymology. c.f the Boatmen's Song example.

ok ok I'm going to give you a background and the sequence of events very broadly regarding the 'Loathly' prediction #71, beginning with the series of events leading to my understanding of HIS SYSTEM and then specifically the Loathly Prediction.

The Hands system: Ilúvatar's hands. His Secret Grammar.
The geometric model: 15 years and thousands of etymologies and how they relate to each other in his texts -with increasing input from his images too (5 yrs) once I realized they were also part of it. The hands of Ilúvatar sequence is the creation of the right angled triangle you see in 'Eeriness'. 3 hands = 3 planes of opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse. It's important because when characters raise their hands or arms that's the echo of the sequence of Ilúvatar's hand symbolism. Left = TIME-female-Sun (opposite) Edith-Goldberry. Right = SPACE-male-moon (adjacent) Tolkien-Bombadil. Both hands = command-domination of one side over the other (hypotenuse) = conflict and resolution. Wings are also the same symbolism. Sequence of 3 creates 3 planes of triangle. I can concatenate those list of things to both planes because Tolkien assigns EVERYTHING to those 3 planes. So that's the point when Ilúvatar creates the 'soul' of the marriage of Tolkien and Edith- two halves of one whole- hence "2 and 6" half crown of Bombadil-Goldberry, prediction #1. "My other half".
My homepage has LOTS of examples and explains the hands system- all grounded in the etymologies of the words in the text.

I had already determined his grammar of planar orientation and the TURN, and the importance of the cardinal compass directions. Cardinal from "cardo (genitive cardinis) "that on which something turns or depends; pole of the sky," originally "door hinge,".

I then sussed that it was actually a system of rational planes stacked on top of each other- like Minas Tirith in fact- which is his Purgatory from Dante. It's a medieval symbolic landscape just like Dante's Divine Comedy where the inner spiritual reality is manifested in the outer world. 7 deadly sins = 7 tiers of a city. I also figured out that the two trees were two spirals. And that they were also the Sun and Moon and their courses. Same thing. Passage up/down between the planes is via THE TURN through the DOOR guided by the STAR- see "cardinal" above. The turns left or right through the DOOR are the two spirals. A spiritual journey up through planes, just like Dante's Divine Comedy. The Two Trees and Sun and Moon are just incarnations in the World of the ideal form of the opposite and adjacent planes in the triangle created in the Music (and the Vision).

Then by accident I found Hennerson's article in mythlore from 30 years ago= 'Solid Geometry'- he had the basics of the duality (straight vs curved) and that's when I realized that the name he gave it was the correct name for Tolkien's system: a DIALECTIC. I'd already described it as a conversation on my site. I looked up the etymology of dialectic = Greek dialektos, conversation. Perfect. That's what Ilúvatar's hands sequence creates. And then I found Tolkien's source: the triangle in Plato's Republic as representing both a city and the soul and all other kinds of things, and I found the DIALECTIC too, and I also found the Spindle of Necessity. And guess what? The triangle and the Spindle looked remarkably like my models. The Spindle = pole with many circles turned right and left involving turns and upwards progression. You can see the resemblance here. And I also found this in The Republic which describes very well what I had written about his system of planes and doors: you ascend the rational planes through the Door, or descend to hell. "Then, my noble friend, geometry will draw the soul toward truth, and create the spirit of philosophy, and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down." In Tolkien's system you are drawn onward by the STAR and Faith. The star is at the right angle in the triangle. The right angle IS the Door. The star guides to the door. See the two hearts here. The two hearts are at the right angle = the DOOR. You go upwards to heaven, or downwards to hell.

And then I found Tolkien's statement about the Ananke in his letters...Ananke = Necessity.

Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest. Man the story-teller would have to be redeemed in a manner consonant with his nature: by a moving story. But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. So that in the Primary Miracle (the Resurrection) and the lesser Christian miracles too though less, you have not only that sudden glimpse of the truth behind the apparent Anankê2 of our world, but a glimpse that is actually a ray of light through the very chinks of the universe about us. [Letter #79]

In other words God the supreme Artist created an ananke and 'fairy story'. And we can certainly infer the possibility that Tolkien emulated that. And he talks about planes too. BINGO.

And it's by using that whole model that I'm able to make the predictions. His system is a machine- a 'narrative machine' (he mentions the 'machinery' in the Resnik interview) which turns through geometric planes via orientation. Conflict:resolution. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the centre of it all- the template, the blueprint for the interactions in the narrative. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the 'Battle of the Sexes'- again the Loathly Lady theme. During the day the Sun dominates. At night the moon dominates. At twilight they are both in the sky together briefly in harmony and the DOOR opens. The DOOR is another subject -but related. But that's why the two hearts are at the right angle in Eeriness. They are the Sun and Moon of Edith and Tolkien at the Door in harmony. As incarnations of the Music the courses of the Sun and Moon can be regarded as 'the Music of the Spheres' and the geometry as his own personal 'Sacred Geometry' of his marriage. The courses of the Sun and Moon is this way convey increasing and decreasing states of harmony (accord) and discord. Etymology gives PIE root *kerd- "heart." Hence the two hearts. The TURN mechanism itself consists of 3 stages in the narratives, 3 turns of reorientation in fact: spirit->physical->language. That's why I predicted (#6) the appearance of the word spirit, or the subject of, in the first instance of the 3 of Denethor's 'The West Has Failed' after reading Shippey. "‘He is burning, already burning,’ he said sadly. ‘The house of his spirit crumbles.’"Correct. How I do that then? The TURN is 3 turns of re-orientation. The first one is the re-orientation of the spirit. A full analysis of Denethor's turn is in the Turn in Practice. I first found the TURN in the Akallabêth 15 years ago.

Regarding the table of predictions. Fair point. I created the table for more in-depth explanations than what is in the pdf but I was making too many predictions to keep with up with it all. (I'm getting better at it because my understanding is improving.) Just better I copy and paste what is in the pdf into the relevant slots in the table for now. So, thanks for the feedback on that.

Regards 1/ The unveiling. I've made 29 predictions surrounding that theme: the Loathly Lady. The central image in his drawings for that theme is 'Wickedness'. Remember the Loathly Lady is created by the man in his mind. That's the whole point of it. His Fear. That seed of fear and confusion begins in the Discords of Melkor. It's all Loathly Lady-Battle of the Sexes after that.
Two predictions that I made: #4 That Tolkien's word for Remmirath would refer to flies in some way in the etymology. Correct. (sithagong 'dragonfly'(sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades).) Now the word Remmirath in no way whatsoever suggests flies does it?
The other prediction #24, that the 7 stars of the Valacirca would be referred to as (specifically) butterflies. Correct. How do the stars in Ursa Major resemble butterflies? There are no references in mythology anywhere to my knowledge. I was able to make the prediction because the butterflies are the DAGAZ RUNE- the BUTTERFLY RUNE-the DOOR.

I could predict that because the 7 stars are 7 female figures in his histories- they guide through the door. And at the Downfall of Númenor they are captured and appear then in the Remmirath (in the East where Shelob is). Like flies in a web, hence the prediction #4 regarding flies. The Remmirath, Borgil and Menelvegor are mentioned right at the outset of TLotR for that reason. This is the first unveiling of the 7. Dance of the 7 veils.

Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt.

Aragorn and Frodo have to free them from the webs ("netted stars", Old English net "open textile fabric tied or woven with a mesh for catching fish, birds, or wild animals alive; network; spider web,",) and restore them to the north. One of the stars is Arwen (Evening), she's the last of the 7, the other is Galadriel (Morning). In the CONSTELLATIONS you can see how the Bull (the Enemy) Borgil stands between Menelvagor and the Remmirath. Aragorn is symbolized by Menelvagor, the HUNTER. See all of my statements about the HUNT. Still more research to do but the 3 stars of Orion's belt are no doubt the Three Hunters of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. The Downfall was 'She That is fallen'- and their capture, the 7 female figures was part of that fall. When Ar-Pharazôn seized the sceptre from Tar-Miriel that was the last beat in the narrative of the downfall of the female in the Line of Kings. (Aldarion and Erendis explores that relationship conflict theme between male and female too). That's why Tolkien strangely uses the word 'webs' instead of tapestries in the fall of Miriel ("with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever."). It's a HINT.

The man creates the loathly lady in his mind (again the medieval symbolic landscape idea- inner reality manifests in the outer world). And She-lob is 'created' at the Downfall as the antithesis of She-that-must-be-obeyed = Galadriel. She-lob IS She That is Fallen ('She' being the Marian Galadriel). Hence the phial of Galadriel used against Shelob. That's why Shelob is referred to as Loathly because she is the inversion of the Lovely Lady (that Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring). I knew that the theme of 'She That is Fallen' was the battle of the sexes (c.f Aldarion and Erendis for e.g) and that Shelob was an incarnation of the ruin of She That is Fallen but I didn't have a name for it- a source in literature. I just called it 'the Battle of the Sexes'. Then I found the motif of the Loathly Lady. Then I realized and made the 'loathly' prediction about Shelob. Aragorn (and Frodo) have to restore the stars (womankind) back to their rightful place in the north in the Valacirca. The whole Fellowship are involved of course but Aragorn is the principle actor. The butterflies in the Valacirca become flies trapped in webs in the Remmirath at the She That is Fallen. As I've already said She in 'She That is Fallen' is She-lob who is the inverted, antithesis of the Marian figure (the star of Númenor= Stella Maris, the Virgin Mary the Star of the Sea) symbolized by Galadriel (from Haggard's 'She'). Shelob is ruined and fallen. She-lob is 'She' as a spider. That's why Shelob, 'Her Ladyship' is referred to as Loathly because, as the Loathly Lady, she's an inversion of the Lovely Lady which Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring. And the 7 stars narrative is why we see 'The Star of the North' of Aragorn- which restores the Stars back to the North- connecting the two narratives Akallabêth and TLotR via Silmarien.
So what's the big deal about the north and the east? That's the TURN= turn of 90 degrees which is a move between the two planes of orientation- more fundamentally it's a TURN between plane of opposite (left hand) and the adjacent (right hand) of the triangle: the DIALECTIC. That's his system- turning between the planes. They are turned (bent) from N to E at 'She That is Fallen' and then restored turned back again.
Another relevant prediction (#25): that there would be 7 of the strange symbols on the left hand curtain of 'Wickedness' because? They are 7 veils. Dance of the 7 veils. Correct. Then I found his source: Haggard's 'She'.There are 44 references to veils. And then there's the Galadriel connection to 'She' and the 'Aiesha Unveils' chapter. The mention of the Remmirath in LotR = unveiling no.1.

And I found this yesterday which made me smile. Regards what I just said about the Remmirath.

Greek Pleiades (singular Plēias), perhaps literally "constellation of the doves" from a shortened form of peleiades, plural of peleias "dove" (from PIE root *pel- "dark-colored, gray"). Or perhaps from plein "to sail," because the season of navigation begins with their heliacal rising.

If you look at sail you see: sail (n.) Old English segl "sail, veil, curtain," from Proto-Germanic *seglom

The same veil/ curtain in 'Wickedness' which has the 7 veils on it. Shelob's webs are grey of course. The stars as the females are doves of peace. And the helical rising = the restoration of the Sun and the up SPIRAL in the Spindle of Necessity. Helix is from Greek helix from PIE *wel-ik-, from root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve," from PIE root *wel- (3) "to turn, revolve.". TO TURN.

Regards 2/ I am going to field that image to 20 people giving them the annotation that I gave you and I bet that most of them will see the woman. And I'm going to choose people who are not interested in Tolkien. People with no previous knowledge or bias.
Hidden images. As stated Tolkien worked his system out at a surprisingly young age -and stuck with it all his life. It was during the time towards the end of King Edward's and the creation of the Book of Ishness. The Book of Ishness refers to 'Book of Engl-ishness'- England = angle land, the land of angles. The Book of Angle-ishness'.That's why we see so many abstract drawings and the geometry in this one: Eeriness. We know he also studied A.S at King Edward's and Greek because his mods were on Greek. That's where he encountered Greek and A.S. As for the hidden images: it's a medieval symbolic landscape after the Arthurian Romances and after Dante's Divine Comedy. There's a serious purpose behind those hidden images. You can see his allusions to hidden geography, geometry, pattern, Arthur etc it in the N.C.P. Basically TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio.

Regards 3/ "You predicted 'loathly or loathsome'. You were right with the less common word, but you would still be claiming it as true had you found the more common one. The spiders in The Hobbit are 'loathsome'; this now looks less like a miraculous prediction, and more like an easy win that paid off with a bonus."

'Less common word'?. lol You mean 'previously unheard of extremely rare word from a previously unheard of motif'. See above for the related predictions as to why I was able to make the prediction. 29 of 'em all interrelated on that theme to date. Shelob was 'created' at the Downfall as the Whore of Babylon (the 'anti-Mary'), the ultimate eschatological manifestation of the Loathly Lady. There are no miracles mate- it's all etymology hidden under your nose.

Regards 4/ Actually I am taking Tolkien's timeline into account. If you read my homepage you'll see it all laid out. Most of what I intend to put on my homepage is there now- though some small parts are still a work in progress.

The geometry that the Balrog is part of -his system- was in effect since the end of King Edward's and the Book of Ishness. That predates The Fall of Gondolin by some years. The Hands of Ilúvatar are the left and right female and male in the triangle DIALECTIC. That's based on Plato's views on the soul as revealed in The Republic- which Tolkien would have been exposed to at King Edwards -I think we can guarantee he read that- it being one of the most influential books on philosophy in the world, and Edwards teaching Latin and Greek, Classics. The Balrog is the left hand. It's actually Edith. In that confrontation Gandalf is Tolkien. You don't have to care about that at all but it is.

All Balrog's are manifestations of the attempted domination by the left hand, (the Sun, the female) of the moon the male in the DIALECTIC. To command and silence them. In the male's eyes as per the Loathly Lady theme it's the female trying to be a male. That domination of the Sun is characterized as a threat by the male who has oppressed the female from the beginning. The fear, the confusion as to their mutual roles of man (Adam) and woman (Eve) are created by the Discords of Melkor. Loathly Lady theme. Melkor's attempt to drown out all other voices in the creation of the Music is manifested in the Loathly Lady theme- the dialectic, the conversation. The Balrog appears as the horrific woman. As does Shelob. Tolkien uses the same motif across both of those characters. Galadriel is in a state of grace and long suffering, she is a threatening, perilous figure, who might swing either way. When she is tempted by the Ring we see the Loathly Lady- the fears of the man in all its glory- the ultimate ruler with total sovereignty over all. But she refuses the Ring and she keeps her grace. She goes into the West- meaning she ORIENTS to the West. TURNS.
He uses the triangle planes (=hands of Ilúvatar- hence why so many hands and raised arms appear throughout his works. c.f Galadriel, wings likewise) and the interrelations between them via the mechanism of the TURN, over and over again. It's his 'narrative machinery' and it's like a symphony where a composer sets out his motifs in the beginning and then develops them: variety and unity (Shelob and the Balrog both Loathly Lady)- ..the MUSIC of the Ainur..the same symphony and secret grammar he alludes to in 'A Secret Vice' because Tolkien IS the little man and the great master who requires very little apparatus to create his system. That's why none of it's written down. He's hinting. A SECRET VICE. Vice etymology = both 'wickedness' and turn and screw (from PIE root *wei- "to turn, twist, bend").
The Loathly Lady motif in his works actually begins *in the World* with the placing of Illuin in the north and Ormal in the south. Their positions are reversed from the very beginning and so the Loathly Lady theme begins. Melkor runs and hides when the Sun first appears. We know Melkor does not like the sun- light- but in the Loathly Lady theme, symbolically that's the male fear of the (dominant) female. And that's the underlying reason why Melkor hates Varda above all. She creates the Valacirca, the 7 stars which manifest as 7 women. Loathly Lady theme again. They are ensnared by him in the Remmirath at the Downfall.

And what's more this understanding solves the conflict between who is Eldest: Bombadil or Treebeard. Neither are. It's the claim itself which is important. Battle of the Sexes = confusion, fear, domination. The female is eldest: Goldberry, the left hand- because it is raised by Ilúvatar and created first. We see that theme a lot. (That's another story from the Talmud Rabbinnic commentaries). You'll see that the whole TURN narrative of Denethor surrounds his confusion about who is the left and right hand between Boromir and Faramir. Again the theme of eldest comes into play.

I've tried my best to stick as tightly as I could to the points but I needed to give you all some background as to how I made the Loathly prediction: the context and the interrelated other predictions which are driven by Tolkien's SYSTEM. And how I came upon the system and how both the Balrog and Shelob can be the same thing. The SYSTEM explains why TOLKIEN IS PREDICTABLE. As I said, no miracles or special powers guys, just HIDDEN etymologies. My homepage really says most of it.

Thanks for taking the time to read and have a nice day.

p.s Hey...I just realized that there might be a fly in the ointment...I realized that I'd not identified Borgil very well. I checked it out on Tolkien Gateway and Prof. Kristine Larsen reckons it's Aldebaran. So I googled Aldebaran.

"Aldebaran is the brightest star in the constellation Taurus and is known as the "Eye of Taurus." The name "Aldebaran" is Arabic, which means "The Follower" because it appears to follow the Hyades star cluster that forms the head of the bull.."

Hahaha! That worked out rather well what with the Enemy being a big eye in Mordor. So my opinion is that it is in indeed Aldebaran....//edit...Aldebaran is actually on that CONSTELLATIONS image I posted!...not very observant me yaknow. Tut.

The Enemy, the Bull is symbolized by the crescent moon. The two points on the moon are known as the horns of the crescent. The bull has two horns. The constellation of Taurus in which we find Borgil also has two horns. You can see the reference to capturing the stars in the following images. The Sun here, the female is trying to hook them back out of the grasp of the crescent moon, the male. And here in his designs for the Hobbit dust jacket and you can see the DAGAZ rune which agrees with what I previously said: the stars are the butterflies, butterfly rune and guide through the door. The crescent moon is the devil in the man, the Moon, the right hand in the system but he blames his guilt on the woman. Loathly Lady.
As for the Enemy coming between the Man and the Woman in the relationship- ie, the discords, this understanding also explains why the bull here in the cliff face comes between these two figures here which lie on each side of the bull. And you can see the two crescent moons in the Two Trees on the West Gate Doors and hinted at by Tolkien here in the drawing.
The Sun, moon and stars imagery appears in the Hobbit, Silmarillion, early mythological explorations and the LotR because it is part of the Loathly Lady theme which I've already stated runs through the entire Histories beginning with the Discords and began at his late King Edward's and Book of Ishness period. You can see the stars escaping from the clutches of the Moon here at the point Smaug the Enemy is dead. Clearly the two horns of the Dragon are the horns of the Moon as well. Dragon = bull= Enemy = all same thing. The Woman is cast as the Enemy by the man- hence the Balrog and Smaug, yes Smaug is also the Loathly Lady. But it's a case of mistaken identity. It's Melkor fundamentally -the discords of Melkor in the Music influencing the will of the Man and Woman. It's symbolism. The crescent moon and the dragon were used on a cover for Roverandom (Hammond and Scull) but I can't verify if Tolkien approved that.

And the Sun and the crescent Moon on the sail of the ship of M-e supports the interpretation of the pleides as being from 'to sail' as noted above. It's a medieval symbolic landscape and the hidden images have a serious purpose.

This is why I could make the Loathly Prediction and the others and this is Tolkien's system. Take your time reading this folks. It took me 15 years.

monks

08-11-2020, 10:38 AM	#27
monks Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 35	Guys, a reply to all 3 of you if I may Ok, no worries Hui, The meaning, his system is hidden BECAUSE?...it's all hidden right under our noses in the etymologies. c.f The Boatmen's Song example I posted. That accounts for most all of why his system has never been understood before now. HE HAS A SYSTEM. The Secret Grammar alluded to in 'A Secret Vice'. His system is based on planar geometry (fundamentally the triangle) which he took from Plato's Republic, on orientation (West-East, North-South opposites) and on the TURN which moves between those planes. Orientation was extremely important in the Ancient and medieval world- ie putting east at the top of maps etc. "To TURN TO" is all over Tolkien's works. He refers to planes and turns a massive number of times in his works and his letters. 'Plain' is also a favourite go-to word of his- which derives from plane. He disguises his reference to his private system in that way. "miracle", "indisputable power". NO. Etymology. c.f the Boatmen's Song example. ok ok I'm going to give you a background and the sequence of events very broadly regarding the 'Loathly' prediction #71, beginning with the series of events leading to my understanding of HIS SYSTEM and then specifically the Loathly Prediction. The Hands system: Ilúvatar's hands. His Secret Grammar. The geometric model: 15 years and thousands of etymologies and how they relate to each other in his texts -with increasing input from his images too (5 yrs) once I realized they were also part of it. The hands of Ilúvatar sequence is the creation of the right angled triangle you see in 'Eeriness'. 3 hands = 3 planes of opposite, adjacent, hypotenuse. It's important because when characters raise their hands or arms that's the echo of the sequence of Ilúvatar's hand symbolism. Left = TIME-female-Sun (opposite) Edith-Goldberry. Right = SPACE-male-moon (adjacent) Tolkien-Bombadil. Both hands = command-domination of one side over the other (hypotenuse) = conflict and resolution. Wings are also the same symbolism. Sequence of 3 creates 3 planes of triangle. I can concatenate those list of things to both planes because Tolkien assigns EVERYTHING to those 3 planes. So that's the point when Ilúvatar creates the 'soul' of the marriage of Tolkien and Edith- two halves of one whole- hence "2 and 6" half crown of Bombadil-Goldberry, prediction #1. "My other half". My homepage has LOTS of examples and explains the hands system- all grounded in the etymologies of the words in the text. I had already determined his grammar of planar orientation and the TURN, and the importance of the cardinal compass directions. Cardinal from "cardo (genitive cardinis) "that on which something turns or depends; pole of the sky," originally "door hinge,". I then sussed that it was actually a system of rational planes stacked on top of each other- like Minas Tirith in fact- which is his Purgatory from Dante. It's a medieval symbolic landscape just like Dante's Divine Comedy where the inner spiritual reality is manifested in the outer world. 7 deadly sins = 7 tiers of a city. I also figured out that the two trees were two spirals. And that they were also the Sun and Moon and their courses. Same thing. Passage up/down between the planes is via THE TURN through the DOOR guided by the STAR- see "cardinal" above. The turns left or right through the DOOR are the two spirals. A spiritual journey up through planes, just like Dante's Divine Comedy. The Two Trees and Sun and Moon are just incarnations in the World of the ideal form of the opposite and adjacent planes in the triangle created in the Music (and the Vision). Then by accident I found Hennerson's article in mythlore from 30 years ago= 'Solid Geometry'- he had the basics of the duality (straight vs curved) and that's when I realized that the name he gave it was the correct name for Tolkien's system: a DIALECTIC. I'd already described it as a conversation on my site. I looked up the etymology of dialectic = Greek dialektos, conversation. Perfect. That's what Ilúvatar's hands sequence creates. And then I found Tolkien's source: the triangle in Plato's Republic as representing both a city and the soul and all other kinds of things, and I found the DIALECTIC too, and I also found the Spindle of Necessity. And guess what? The triangle and the Spindle looked remarkably like my models. The Spindle = pole with many circles turned right and left involving turns and upwards progression. You can see the resemblance here. And I also found this in The Republic which describes very well what I had written about his system of planes and doors: you ascend the rational planes through the Door, or descend to hell. "Then, my noble friend, geometry will draw the soul toward truth, and create the spirit of philosophy, and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down." In Tolkien's system you are drawn onward by the STAR and Faith. The star is at the right angle in the triangle. The right angle IS the Door. The star guides to the door. See the two hearts here. The two hearts are at the right angle = the DOOR. You go upwards to heaven, or downwards to hell. And then I found Tolkien's statement about the Ananke in his letters...Ananke = Necessity. Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest. Man the story-teller would have to be redeemed in a manner consonant with his nature: by a moving story. But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. So that in the Primary Miracle (the Resurrection) and the lesser Christian miracles too though less, you have not only that sudden glimpse of the truth behind the apparent Anankê2 of our world, but a glimpse that is actually a ray of light through the very chinks of the universe about us. [Letter #79] In other words God the supreme Artist created an ananke and 'fairy story'. And we can certainly infer the possibility that Tolkien emulated that. And he talks about planes too. BINGO. And it's by using that whole model that I'm able to make the predictions. His system is a machine- a 'narrative machine' (he mentions the 'machinery' in the Resnik interview) which turns through geometric planes via orientation. Conflict:resolution. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the centre of it all- the template, the blueprint for the interactions in the narrative. The courses of the Sun and Moon are the 'Battle of the Sexes'- again the Loathly Lady theme. During the day the Sun dominates. At night the moon dominates. At twilight they are both in the sky together briefly in harmony and the DOOR opens. The DOOR is another subject -but related. But that's why the two hearts are at the right angle in Eeriness. They are the Sun and Moon of Edith and Tolkien at the Door in harmony. As incarnations of the Music the courses of the Sun and Moon can be regarded as 'the Music of the Spheres' and the geometry as his own personal 'Sacred Geometry' of his marriage. The courses of the Sun and Moon is this way convey increasing and decreasing states of harmony (accord) and discord. Etymology gives PIE root kerd- "heart." Hence the two hearts. The TURN mechanism itself consists of 3 stages in the narratives, 3 turns of reorientation in fact: spirit->physical->language. That's why I predicted (#6) the appearance of the word spirit, or the subject of, in the first instance of the 3 of Denethor's 'The West Has Failed' after reading Shippey. "‘He is burning, already burning,’ he said sadly. ‘The house of his spirit crumbles.’"Correct. How I do that then? The TURN is 3 turns of re-orientation. The first one is the re-orientation of the spirit. A full analysis of Denethor's turn is in the Turn in Practice. I first found the TURN in the Akallabêth 15 years ago. Regarding the table of predictions. Fair point. I created the table for more in-depth explanations than what is in the pdf but I was making too many predictions to keep with up with it all. (I'm getting better at it because my understanding is improving.) Just better I copy and paste what is in the pdf into the relevant slots in the table for now. So, thanks for the feedback on that. Regards 1/* The unveiling. I've made 29 predictions surrounding that theme: the Loathly Lady. The central image in his drawings for that theme is 'Wickedness'. Remember the Loathly Lady is created by the man in his mind. That's the whole point of it. His Fear. That seed of fear and confusion begins in the Discords of Melkor. It's all Loathly Lady-Battle of the Sexes after that. Two predictions that I made: #4 That Tolkien's word for Remmirath would refer to flies in some way in the etymology. Correct. (sithagong 'dragonfly'(sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades).) Now the word Remmirath in no way whatsoever suggests flies does it? The other prediction #24, that the 7 stars of the Valacirca would be referred to as (specifically) butterflies. Correct. How do the stars in Ursa Major resemble butterflies? There are no references in mythology anywhere to my knowledge. I was able to make the prediction because the butterflies are the DAGAZ RUNE- the BUTTERFLY RUNE-the DOOR. I could predict that because *the 7 stars are 7 female figures in his histories- they guide through the door. And at the Downfall of Númenor they are captured and appear then in the Remmirath (in the East where Shelob is). Like flies in a web, hence the prediction #4 regarding flies. The Remmirath, Borgil and Menelvegor are mentioned right at the outset of TLotR for that reason. This is the first unveiling of the 7. Dance of the 7 veils. Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. Aragorn and Frodo have to free them from the webs ("netted stars", Old English net "open textile fabric tied or woven with a mesh for catching fish, birds, or wild animals alive; network; spider web,",) and restore them to the north. One of the stars is Arwen (Evening), she's the last of the 7, the other is Galadriel (Morning). In the CONSTELLATIONS you can see how the Bull (the Enemy) Borgil stands between Menelvagor and the Remmirath. Aragorn is symbolized by Menelvagor, the HUNTER. See all of my statements about the HUNT. Still more research to do but the 3 stars of Orion's belt are no doubt the Three Hunters of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. The Downfall was 'She* That is fallen'- and their capture, the 7 female figures was part of that fall. When Ar-Pharazôn seized the sceptre from Tar-Miriel that was the last beat in the narrative of the downfall of the female in the Line of Kings. (Aldarion and Erendis explores that relationship conflict theme between male and female too). That's why Tolkien strangely uses the word 'webs' instead of tapestries in the fall of Miriel ("with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever."). It's a HINT. The man creates the loathly lady in his mind (again the medieval symbolic landscape idea- inner reality manifests in the outer world). And She-lob is 'created' at the Downfall as the antithesis of She-that-must-be-obeyed = Galadriel. She-lob IS She That is Fallen ('She' being the Marian Galadriel). Hence the phial of Galadriel used against Shelob. That's why Shelob is referred to as Loathly because she is the inversion of the Lovely Lady (that Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring). I knew that the theme of 'She That is Fallen' was the battle of the sexes (c.f Aldarion and Erendis for e.g) and that Shelob was an incarnation of the ruin of She That is Fallen but I didn't have a name for it- a source in literature. I just called it 'the Battle of the Sexes'. Then I found the motif of the Loathly Lady. *Then I realized and made the 'loathly' prediction about Shelob.* Aragorn (and Frodo) have to restore the stars (womankind) back to their rightful place in the north in the Valacirca. The whole Fellowship are involved of course but Aragorn is the principle actor. The butterflies in the Valacirca become flies trapped in webs in the Remmirath at the She That is Fallen. As I've already said She in 'She That is Fallen' is She-lob who is the inverted, antithesis of the Marian figure (the star of Númenor= Stella Maris, the Virgin Mary the Star of the Sea) symbolized by Galadriel (from Haggard's 'She'). Shelob is ruined and fallen. She-lob is 'She' as a spider. That's why Shelob, 'Her Ladyship' is referred to as Loathly because, as the Loathly Lady, she's an inversion of the Lovely Lady which Galadriel becomes after she has passed the test of the Ring. And the 7 stars narrative is why we see 'The Star of the North' of Aragorn- which restores the Stars back to the North- connecting the two narratives Akallabêth and TLotR via Silmarien. So what's the big deal about the north and the east? That's the TURN= turn of 90 degrees which is a move between the two planes of orientation- more fundamentally it's a TURN between plane of opposite (left hand) and the adjacent (right hand) of the triangle: the DIALECTIC. That's his system- turning between the planes. They are turned (bent) from N to E at 'She That is Fallen' and then restored turned back again. Another relevant prediction (#25): that there would be 7 of the strange symbols on the left hand curtain of 'Wickedness' because? They are 7 veils. Dance of the 7 veils. Correct. Then I found his source: Haggard's 'She'.There are 44 references to veils. And then there's the Galadriel connection to 'She' and the 'Aiesha Unveils' chapter. The mention of the Remmirath in LotR = unveiling no.1. And I found this yesterday which made me smile. Regards what I just said about the Remmirath. Greek Pleiades (singular Plēias), perhaps literally "constellation of the doves" from a shortened form of peleiades, plural of peleias "dove" (from PIE root pel- "dark-colored, gray"). Or perhaps from plein "to sail," because the season of navigation begins with their heliacal rising. If you look at sail you see: sail (n.) Old English segl "sail, veil, curtain," from Proto-Germanic seglom The same veil/ curtain in 'Wickedness' which has the 7 veils on it. Shelob's webs are grey of course. The stars as the females are doves of peace. And the helical rising = the restoration of the Sun and the up SPIRAL in the Spindle of Necessity. Helix is from Greek helix from PIE wel-ik-, from root wel- (3) "to turn, revolve," from PIE root wel- (3) "to turn, revolve.". TO TURN.* Regards 2/ I am going to field that image to 20 people giving them the annotation that I gave you and I bet that most of them will see the woman. And I'm going to choose people who are not interested in Tolkien. People with no previous knowledge or bias. Hidden images. As stated Tolkien worked his system out at a surprisingly young age -and stuck with it all his life. It was during the time towards the end of King Edward's and the creation of the Book of Ishness. The Book of Ishness refers to 'Book of Engl-ishness'- England = angle land, the land of angles. The Book of Angle-ishness'.That's why we see so many abstract drawings and the geometry in this one: Eeriness. We know he also studied A.S at King Edward's and Greek because his mods were on Greek. That's where he encountered Greek and A.S. As for the hidden images: it's a medieval symbolic landscape after the Arthurian Romances and after Dante's Divine Comedy. There's a serious purpose behind those hidden images. You can see his allusions to hidden geography, geometry, pattern, Arthur etc it in the N.C.P. Basically TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio. Regards 3/ "You predicted 'loathly or loathsome'. You were right with the less common word, but you would still be claiming it as true had you found the more common one. The spiders in The Hobbit are 'loathsome'; this now looks less like a miraculous prediction, and more like an easy win that paid off with a bonus." 'Less common word'?. lol You mean 'previously unheard of extremely rare word from a previously unheard of motif'. See above for the related predictions as to why I was able to make the prediction. 29 of 'em all interrelated on that theme to date. Shelob was 'created' at the Downfall as the Whore of Babylon (the 'anti-Mary'), the ultimate eschatological manifestation of the Loathly Lady. There are no miracles mate- it's all etymology hidden under your nose. Regards 4/ Actually I am taking Tolkien's timeline into account. If you read my homepage you'll see it all laid out. Most of what I intend to put on my homepage is there now- though some small parts are still a work in progress. The geometry that the Balrog is part of -his system- was in effect since the end of King Edward's and the Book of Ishness. That predates The Fall of Gondolin by some years. The Hands of Ilúvatar are the left and right female and male in the triangle DIALECTIC. That's based on Plato's views on the soul as revealed in The Republic- which Tolkien would have been exposed to at King Edwards -I think we can guarantee he read that- it being one of the most influential books on philosophy in the world, and Edwards teaching Latin and Greek, Classics. The Balrog is the left hand. It's actually Edith. In that confrontation Gandalf is Tolkien. You don't have to care about that at all but it is. All Balrog's are manifestations of the attempted domination by the left hand, (the Sun, the female) of the moon the male in the DIALECTIC. To command and silence them. In the male's eyes as per the Loathly Lady theme it's the female trying to be a male. That domination of the Sun is characterized as a threat by the male who has oppressed the female from the beginning. The fear, the confusion as to their mutual roles of man (Adam) and woman (Eve) are created by the Discords of Melkor. Loathly Lady theme. Melkor's attempt to drown out all other voices in the creation of the Music is manifested in the Loathly Lady theme- the dialectic, the conversation. The Balrog appears as the horrific woman. As does Shelob. Tolkien uses the same motif across both of those characters. Galadriel is in a state of grace and long suffering, she is a threatening, perilous figure, who might swing either way. When she is tempted by the Ring we see the Loathly Lady- the fears of the man in all its glory- the ultimate ruler with total sovereignty over all. But she refuses the Ring and she keeps her grace. She goes into the West- meaning she ORIENTS to the West. TURNS. He uses the triangle planes (=hands of Ilúvatar- hence why so many hands and raised arms appear throughout his works. c.f Galadriel, wings likewise) and the interrelations between them via the mechanism of the TURN, over and over again. It's his 'narrative machinery' and it's like a symphony where a composer sets out his motifs in the beginning and then develops them: variety and unity (Shelob and the Balrog both Loathly Lady)- ..the MUSIC of the Ainur..the same symphony and secret grammar he alludes to in 'A Secret Vice' because Tolkien IS the little man and the great master who requires very little apparatus to create his system. That's why none of it's written down. He's hinting. A SECRET VICE. Vice etymology = both 'wickedness' and turn and screw (from PIE root wei- "to turn, twist, bend"). The Loathly Lady motif in his works actually begins in the World* with the placing of Illuin in the north and Ormal in the south. Their positions are reversed from the very beginning and so the Loathly Lady theme begins. Melkor runs and hides when the Sun first appears. We know Melkor does not like the sun- light- but in the Loathly Lady theme, symbolically that's the male fear of the (dominant) female. And that's the underlying reason why Melkor hates Varda above all. She creates the Valacirca, the 7 stars which manifest as 7 women. Loathly Lady theme again. They are ensnared by him in the Remmirath at the Downfall. And what's more this understanding solves the conflict between who is Eldest: Bombadil or Treebeard. Neither are. *It's the claim itself which is important. Battle of the Sexes = confusion, fear, domination. The female is eldest: Goldberry, the left hand- because it is raised by Ilúvatar and created first. We see that theme a lot. (That's another story from the Talmud Rabbinnic commentaries). You'll see that the whole TURN narrative of Denethor surrounds his confusion about who is the left and right hand between Boromir and Faramir. Again the theme of eldest comes into play. I've tried my best to stick as tightly as I could to the points but I needed to give you all some background as to how I made the Loathly prediction: the context and the interrelated other predictions which are driven by Tolkien's SYSTEM. And how I came upon the system and how both the Balrog and Shelob can be the same thing. The SYSTEM explains why TOLKIEN IS PREDICTABLE. As I said, no miracles or special powers guys, just HIDDEN etymologies. My homepage really says most of it. Thanks for taking the time to read and have a nice day. p.s Hey...I just realized that there might be a fly in the ointment...I realized that I'd not identified Borgil very well. I checked it out on Tolkien Gateway and Prof. Kristine Larsen reckons it's Aldebaran. So I googled Aldebaran. "Aldebaran is the brightest star in the constellation Taurus and is known as the "Eye of Taurus." The name "Aldebaran" is Arabic, which means "The Follower" because it appears to follow the Hyades star cluster that forms the head of the bull.."* Hahaha! That worked out rather well what with the Enemy being a big eye in Mordor. So my opinion is that it is in indeed Aldebaran....//edit...Aldebaran is actually on that CONSTELLATIONS image I posted!...not very observant me yaknow. Tut. The Enemy, the Bull is symbolized by the crescent moon. The two points on the moon are known as the horns of the crescent. The bull has two horns. The constellation of Taurus in which we find Borgil also has two horns. You can see the reference to capturing the stars in the following images. The Sun here, the female is trying to hook them back out of the grasp of the crescent moon, the male. And here in his designs for the Hobbit dust jacket and you can see the DAGAZ rune which agrees with what I previously said: the stars are the butterflies, butterfly rune and guide through the door. The crescent moon is the devil in the man, the Moon, the right hand in the system but he blames his guilt on the woman. Loathly Lady. As for the Enemy coming between the Man and the Woman in the relationship- ie, the discords, this understanding also explains why the bull here in the cliff face comes between these two figures here which lie on each side of the bull. And you can see the two crescent moons in the Two Trees on the West Gate Doors and hinted at by Tolkien here in the drawing. The Sun, moon and stars imagery appears in the Hobbit, Silmarillion, early mythological explorations and the LotR because it is part of the Loathly Lady theme which I've already stated runs through the entire Histories beginning with the Discords and began at his late King Edward's and Book of Ishness period. You can see the stars escaping from the clutches of the Moon here at the point Smaug the Enemy is dead. Clearly the two horns of the Dragon are the horns of the Moon as well. Dragon = bull= Enemy = all same thing. The Woman is cast as the Enemy by the man- hence the Balrog and Smaug, yes Smaug is also the Loathly Lady. But it's a case of mistaken identity. It's Melkor fundamentally -the discords of Melkor in the Music influencing the will of the Man and Woman. It's symbolism. The crescent moon and the dragon were used on a cover for Roverandom (Hammond and Scull) but I can't verify if Tolkien approved that. And the Sun and the crescent Moon on the sail of the ship of M-e supports the interpretation of the pleides as being from 'to sail' as noted above. It's a medieval symbolic landscape and the hidden images have a serious purpose. This is why I could make the Loathly Prediction and the others and this is Tolkien's system. Take your time reading this folks. It took me 15 years. monks Last edited by monks; 08-13-2020 at 09:50 PM.