The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Magic in Middle-earth

**lindil** · 09-16-2002, 01:46 PM

I will throw in a few points here in honor of raising Saulotus/bobwehadbabyanditsaboy back to the dead.

1> in the letters [mentioned by saulotus above] JRRT toyed w/ the idea of the race of man being 'non-magical' he realized that while philosophically he might like it, it would be copmpletely impossible to eliminate w/ out major contradictions.

So men, esp. the dunedain had access to magic in a way that seems significantly more limited than the Elves.

2>the word'VIRTUE' in chinese and greek [during the early Christian era at least] meant something on the order of energy/being.
As in the gospels where Christ looks around the crowd to see who touched him because he noticed 'virtue' [gr. energia] going out of Him.

So there are in M-E [ and real life] spells where you cause something to happen based all or partially on outside forces.
and there is also one's inherent being or energy which can be [ through being taught or a natural ability]transmitted and shaped if you will into a certain 'virtue' . W/ the staffs it was 'returning' or somesuch.

The lembas clearly had elven 'virtue' again energy or being woven into the material ingredients. Dunedain could have made them w/ the right 'corn' and other ingredients, and if they had had the magical training, could have imparted something of their virtue, it just would not have been as grat as a high-elf's [ or a member of galadriel's women's group].

So as for the staff in question, there seemed to be a group of dunedain in Gondor who learned or developed a 'magical walking staff'craft. It probably was not as Faramir admits very potent, esp compared to the gear frodo and sam were already toting around, but such as it was Farmir offered it.

Back to the mouth of sauron question, Elros and the mouth are apples and oranges.
Elros was granted a gift by the valar/Eru.
The mouth was grasping to hold onto life and power and literally sold his soul to Sauron/Morgoth to do it. Sauron saw him as a useful servant and most likely accomadated him. As to why the wringwraiths were wraiths and the mouth was not after so many years of work for Sauron, the answer is simple - the rings. And maybe the mouth had a 'lesser essay of the craft' regardless, JRRT tells us the mouth was very old and 70 years does not cut it for a known black numenorean, even if Burrahobbit, one can find tales of poor memory even close at hand

.

So we are really left w/ a 2nd age black numenorean still alive, through undoubtedly nefarious if obscure means.

Boy - it was nice to look back into the downs past. There used to be so many threads of that quality that there was no time for me to read them all [or so it seemed [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]].
Of course I can't keep up w/ all of the [imo] good threads now either so...

09-16-2002, 01:46 PM	#64
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	I will throw in a few points here in honor of raising Saulotus/bobwehadbabyanditsaboy back to the dead. 1> in the letters [mentioned by saulotus above] JRRT toyed w/ the idea of the race of man being 'non-magical' he realized that while philosophically he might like it, it would be copmpletely impossible to eliminate w/ out major contradictions. So men, esp. the dunedain had access to magic in a way that seems significantly more limited than the Elves. 2>the word'VIRTUE' in chinese and greek [during the early Christian era at least] meant something on the order of energy/being. As in the gospels where Christ looks around the crowd to see who touched him because he noticed 'virtue' [gr. energia] going out of Him. So there are in M-E [ and real life] spells where you cause something to happen based all or partially on outside forces. and there is also one's inherent being or energy which can be [ through being taught or a natural ability]transmitted and shaped if you will into a certain 'virtue' . W/ the staffs it was 'returning' or somesuch. The lembas clearly had elven 'virtue' again energy or being woven into the material ingredients. Dunedain could have made them w/ the right 'corn' and other ingredients, and if they had had the magical training, could have imparted something of their virtue, it just would not have been as grat as a high-elf's [ or a member of galadriel's women's group]. So as for the staff in question, there seemed to be a group of dunedain in Gondor who learned or developed a 'magical walking staff'craft. It probably was not as Faramir admits very potent, esp compared to the gear frodo and sam were already toting around, but such as it was Farmir offered it. Back to the mouth of sauron question, Elros and the mouth are apples and oranges. Elros was granted a gift by the valar/Eru. The mouth was grasping to hold onto life and power and literally sold his soul to Sauron/Morgoth to do it. Sauron saw him as a useful servant and most likely accomadated him. As to why the wringwraiths were wraiths and the mouth was not after so many years of work for Sauron, the answer is simple - the rings. And maybe the mouth had a 'lesser essay of the craft' regardless, JRRT tells us the mouth was very old and 70 years does not cut it for a known black numenorean, even if Burrahobbit, one can find tales of poor memory even close at hand . So we are really left w/ a 2nd age black numenorean still alive, through undoubtedly nefarious if obscure means. Boy - it was nice to look back into the downs past. There used to be so many threads of that quality that there was no time for me to read them all [or so it seemed [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]]. Of course I can't keep up w/ all of the [imo] good threads now either so... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light. Last edited by lindil; 03-30-2004 at 11:53 AM.