[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

monks, you're still throwing out far too many points per post; it's literally impossible for anyone to engage with all of them, so I'm not sure what you're looking to achieve. I'm going to choose just two to respond to. The first is your list of 'did you see's:
hS

Thanks for the time and energy. Haha your predictions. Priceless mate. "Indisputable power"? Where did that come from? If you read my recent reply to William you'd find that I've already distanced myself from any claims to any special powers or gifts of insight. Same with my homepage. You just ignored that. ok dude. Tolkien has a system and you work it out from his etymologies in the text. It takes time but it's a very simple METHOD. And I don't understand why clicking on an image to look at it is so much effort.


I'm going to focus on 2 things. The image 'Wickedness', and 'the Door' because they are connected.

The first image. You said that the eyes are no more female than male. Look at the whole image and look at the long hair falling down to either side from that face: black and red which are the two colours of the Enemy, hence 'Wickedness'. It is a woman. Shelob is found in Mordor. The colours associated with Mordor are red and black. The image Wickedness is the 'Dance of the Seven Veils' which is part of the Loathly Lady theme. The theme is sexual temptation, and the fall of Woman, the dominant predatory woman, the Whore of Babylon in fact. 'She That is Fallen' from the Akallabêth. Hence the spider imagery. (the many eyes, and the spider-like bases of the columns which can be viewed as two feet with the head at the top. And remember it's a symbolic landscape- the symbolic forms don't have to be literal). Shelob is the 'Loathly Lady'. As is the Balrog (after writing my essay on that which I posted a link to on here I subsequently discovered that the Loathly Lady is referred to more than once as carrying a multi-thonged whip...I also posted that update..but that's just a yet another coincidence. *cough*). Both are incarnations of that. Tolkien developed the idea of the veils from Haggard's 'She'. Now note that I only made the connection between 'She' and that imagery after I'd made most of the 29 predictions related to the theme and that image. I discovered the word veil occurs over 40? times in 'She'. I've made no less than 29 predictions around this theme.

Just to take a sampling.

Prediction #71. That Tolkien would describe Shelob as 'loathsome' or 'loathly'. He describes her as 'loathly' ("the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld"). But that's just another coincidence right? ookkk darlings.

Prediction #4. That the meaning and description for Remmirath (the Pleiades) would incorporate the meaning/ description of 'flies'. (sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades). (The Book of Lost Tales). But that's just a coincidence right? D'OH! I last read that book 35 years ago.

Prediction #24. That each of the Seven Stars in the Valacirca were butterflies. Again, the Book of Lost Tales: The Silver Sickle The seven butterflies. Coincidence. How did I manage that then?

Tolkien Prediction #25 The strange signs on the left curtain in 'Wickedness'. I predicted that there would be 7 of them." Because? No not Samurai Huinesoron, each one is 'a veil' from the Dance of the 7 veils. The shape of them suggests this too. LOOK. And each has pair of 'holes' in them suggesting eyes -yaknow like the two eyes at the top of the image I pointed out? With her hair over her eyes rather like a veil huh? Nuuu all a coincidence!

Prediction #36 I predicted that the Cirth rune shown would refer to the female in some way, or denoting 'ng' from its visual shape.". NG is a velar nasal. Etymology of velar: "sail, curtain (see veil (n.))". The same curtain, veil in the image. Because? This is the female- the Loathly Lady, the Dance of the 7 VEILS. NG symbolism refers to the words of Gandalf 'through fire and flood'- the crossing over of death. His language is mathematical Huinesoron (see Kilby) and geometric- completely inextricable from the narrative and symbolism. I've already made some inroads into understanding it. And can you see the rune Dagaz there- I did say that these two subjects were connected. More info on my predictions page. Cue 7 Samurai.

Prediction #53 That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as abominable. Correct. Because? The Whore of Babylon is referred to as an abomination.

Prediction #61 That Tolkien would mention the unveiling of the woman 7 times in TLotr. Woman clearly defined as Sun and stars. Moon = male. Correct. See my essay (work in progress!) here. Dance of the 7 veils my friend.

Prediction #62 that the 4th occurrence of the 7 instances of the woman being unveiled would be the instance in the Mirror of Galadriel. Galadriel is part of the Loathly Lady theme. Hence why her phial is used against Shelob. It occurs there because that's the centre of the 7 unveilings sequence 123 4 567 and it occurs in the centre of the geometry of the LotR map (black, grey, white). Grey being Rhovanion and the crossing of the mirror. 4 = plane of the mirror. Tolkien uses a chessboard scheme from Alice Through the Looking Glass. See my latest post to Boro. Cool huh?

Prediction #87 That Tolkien used 3 or 4 instances of the word 'purple' in The Lord of the Rings. Correct 3 times. Why? Because of the symbolism in the West gate imagery. The theme of the Dance of the 7 veils spans the whole book. It carries over from She That is Fallen, continues with the mention of the Remmirath, and ends in Shelob. "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in er hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The cup is the same cup of 'Who now shall refill the cup for me?' of Galadriel. We can talk about scarlet another time. As I've already said TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio- modeled on Dante. It's a well honed systematic narrative machine.

So the Door, the Dagaz rune in the landscape.

In the History of Animals Aristotle refers to the soul as a butterfly, psyche. It's found in Homer and Plato too. Tolkien was exposed to Greek at King Edwards and possibly even before. Dagaz = butterfly rune = the Door. The soul passes through the Door to reach higher rational planes including the final passage from life into death. That's why you can clearly see the 'X' suggested in the Helm's Deep drawing leading to the Paths of the Dead. You know the Door there? Extremely obvious relation. And in 'Before' and 'Afterwards' which is obviously the crossing over through the Door. You can see how Tolkien has lined up the rune Dagaz with the megalithic Door on his design for the dustjacket for the The Hobbit. And you have the famous Door in the mountain. Nooooo the door has nothing to do with dagaz at all! He also tried to line up gyfu at the bottom. Again 'X', gift- the gift of eternal life (Death) and sex.

Symbolically Doors in Tolkien consists of two wings- two swinging halves -see etymology which suggests the early doors were like saloon doors with two halves. Hence why he chose Dagaz as the Door- both from the the soul connection and the door etymology. The two wings are male and female which are required to be in harmony to open the door. The door opens at twilight..because? The Sun and Moon are female and male. Etymology twilight = two lights. Twilight = harmony, both in the sky.That's why the Door of Erebor opens at twilight. Naahh none of that is consistent at all The letter 'X' symbolizes the convergence of the Sun and moon- female and male. The two hearts in this geometry in fact.

Each of the 7 stars in the Valacirca is a Door- hence prediction 24 above. Each of the 7 stars are female figures. They guide the Free Peoples through the Histories through the Door. Hence prediction 24. Galadriel = 1st, Arwen the 7th. I've known that for several years Huinesoron.
The flies of prediction 4. The Remmirath are the 7 stars, the females who have been captured by Shelob. Hence why they are in the East (with Shelob) and Tolkien mentions them right at the outset of TLotR. Loathly Lady. Dance of the 7 veils theme ending in Shelob. The 7 stars of the Valacirca in the north were captured at the Downfall ('She That is Fallen'). Aragorn = Orion. Pleiades = the 7 stars (females), symbolizing Arwen 7th star. Taurus the Bull, the Enemy, (who appears both in the symbolic landscape in the West Gate cliff face and in the very obvious shape of page V of the Book of Mazarbul (intended to suggest Maze-Ar(Sun)-bull) and in the etymology of the sound the troll makes when his toe is stabbed. Do check the etymology of 'bellow' when you get a chance), stands between him and the Pleiades CONSTELLATIONS HERE. Fairly straight forward that mate. Oh yeh and Orion is The Hunter...riiiiiiight- that would be the Wheel of Fortune machinery and The 3 Hunters theme I keep referring to. So this capture of the stars (flies) by Shelob is why we see Tolkien give us the hint here with his unusual use of the word webs and the focus on women at the fall of Tar-Miriel who represents womankind who is made to fall (She That is Fallen):

"Númenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever. And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls.

The etymology of web surprisingly gives tapestries. But no non-philologist would associate the word web with tapestries. Tolkien knows that. Meaning "spider's web" is first recorded early 13c. It's a hint. As I said 'She That is Fallen'-which manifests as the Balrog and Shelob. And Shelob eats children as we know. The Akallabêth and TLotR are connected because in TLotR the woman, She That is Fallen, the Sun, is restored to her rightful place in the north. Cue 'The Star of the North' from Silmarien in the Akallabêth. See ALL of the rest of my posts. ALL consistent.

Recalling the Haggard influence I mentioned. 'She' is Galadriel developed from Haggard's 'She', and 'She'-lob is an inversion of her. She That is Fallen is Womankind- the spider Shelob who appears in 'Wickedness' and the 7 stars of the Remmirath (the flies) who are captured (are fallen) by her in her webs.

As a side note. I don't know why anyone would have a problem with the idea that Tolkien has incorporated a motif from medieval literature. I just happened to predict that word 'loathly' would be used to describe Shelob. That's a rare and archaic word. I'd never even heard of it until I bumped into it in my research. And later I discovered that there are folks who have associated Shelob with the vagina dentata. Which is correct. Hence the sexual imagery. And then I discovered that the Loathly Lady is described more than once as carrying a multi-thonged whip. Which agreed with my Balrog analysis. And this one will really annoy you haha. She is also described as most learned and having knowledge in 'DIALECTIC AND GEOMETRY'- those two very things all over my homepage and thesis mate.

Fancy that then.

p.s

I already responded to your statement Huinesoron about numerology being subjective. My response was the obvious:- not in Tolkien's personal system. Hence my many correct predictions pertaining to his use of it. He modeled his works on Dante and Plato. His geometry and dialectic are derived from The Republic and the Timeaus. His numerology was developed from Dante's.

Thanks for the new word pareidolia btw I've not encountered that for a while, forgot about that one. :-) I think you've failed to recognize the importance of the medieval symbolic landscape in his works. But that's to be expected. It's a very new idea to Tolkien scholarship- at least I think it is. That's what the hidden imagery is. It does have a purpose beyond mere riddling. Tolkien touches upon it in the N.C.P where he speaks about Arthur and geometry and geography- the symbolic landscape was found in the Arthurian Romance literature. Tolkien even invented a word 'Garthurian' to describe a 'hidden realm'..haha..(Garthurian Hidden Realm ( = Doriath)....G-ARTHURIAN THUR- 'secrete', guarded, hidden)...mmmm whatya think Huinersoron? The most obvious example is the geometry in the illustration 'Eeriness'. And not coincidentally, that's the first time we encounter his monogram in its final form.

The letters of his alphabet are the material structures of the world just like in the Mystic Talmud -that's why Tolkien has mystic words..and in the ideogrammatic origins of our own alphabet. J = ac the oak, the dragon, see Tolkien's Floral Alphabet letter J. T = birch from the Beth-Luis-nion, the two Rs = wrath of the man and woman 'back to back' as you see in the figures on the West Gate cliff face- the Loathly Lady theme, which just so happens to be the plane of wrath from his incorporation of Dante's 7 Deadly Sins in The Lord of the Rings..yaknow Minas Tirith bearing an uncanny resemblance to his City of Purgatory? //grin. fingers in ears not listenin la la la! That's why there are 10 instances of his monogram in his narrative, in the landscape. It's a symbolic landscape. And that coincides with Seth's book. The monogram does indeed exist in the Moria sequence and also at the North Gate (the two Gates are two sides of the same gate), but not for the reasons that she gives. Her anagrams are about the Wheel of Fortune and the Hunt which begins in the Moria sequence. There are 5 of them. The 5th one refers to the Ring which you can find as the circle at the bottom of the letter J in his monogram. The Ring symbolizes the 'closed circle', the ouroborus -much like the Iron Crown of Melkor. The closed circle is a state where repentance is not possible (from his letters) and separation from God is everlasting. It's found at the bottom of the letter J because that's where hell is. Heaven is the Door at the top of the monogram in the sky where the flame is. The superimposition of the letter J on the letter T in his monogram is the Dragon coiled around the Tree. Its full visualization is the two trees utterly entwined from his wedding poem. Those being the oak and the birch. And yes the right hand male is the oak, the Enemy. But as I've already stated more than once, the influence of the Enemy swaps between left and right hands because of the spiral courses of the Sun and moon around each other. So both male and female are fallen. The letters are also assigned to the Wheel of Fortune. The 4 compass points. NORTH = J = The bull (the Enemy). SOUTH = T = Man (the man primarily represents the plight of the Woman in the Loathly Lady theme). WEST = R = the eagle. EAST = R = the lion. During the rotation of the Wheel during the narrative of the LotR the Woman moves from the south to the top. She is restored to her rightful place, recall the The Star of the North. The Devil moves from the top (N) to the bottom. The 5th anagram is the Wheel itself, the Ring. In the monogram, the two sets of 4 dots can be joined by a diagonal line. That's the plane of the hypotenuse in his geometry, which in his world manifests as the ray of sunlight which you also see in his illustrations. The dots represent the horizontal plane (male) and the vertical plane (female). As such they are the square and the circle which you can find in his heraldry. Their relationship is the 'squaring the circle' which is a geometric metaphor for conflict, the attempt to turn the female into a male- that occurs through a misunderstanding of the role of man and woman in God's order. That begins in the Discords of Melkor when the geometry is created. It's the Loathly Lady theme once again. I covered that in my initial exchange with you regarding the silver sixpence if you remember.


monks