The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - ‘The Workhouse’

davem · 08-31-2004, 12:58 PM

I think certainly the intent & motivation of the subcreator have a 'divine' origin for Tolkien, but what is produced comes from the subcreator, not from God - ie, the subcreator is not simply parroting what he has been given. My reading of the Niggle story is that God couldn't have created Niggle's Parish - man is a 'co-creator' with God. Man's creation's are unique, & could only have arisen in his mind, as a result of his experience, & that this is God's intention. God may, from His position outside time, know what will be, but He doesn't cause it to be. Only Niggle could have brought his subcreation into being (if only because if God had been responsible it would have been creation, not sub-creation).

So LbN is the account of Niggle's perfection - he goes through the Workhouse in order to become what he was meant to be. He is made the most perfect subcreator he is capable of becoming. There's nothing in the story for me which implies that Niggle's eternal soul is in danger. There's no mention of hell, or damnation - the worst that could happen is that Niggle will remain in the workhouse until he is ready to leave. This seems, as I think about it, less & less like the Catholic Puragatory, & not even very much like the Halls of Mandos. Niggle is in the Workhouse for a purpose, & the purpose is revealed at the end to be the creation of Niggle's Parish, 'the best introduction to the Mountains'.

Niggle has a task to achieve, divinely ordained, & that is to achieve what in the end he does achieve - along with Parish. The question of 'Salvation' doesn't come into it at any point, nor does 'damnation'. Niggle's 'journey', like Sam's, of which (as Fordim points out) it is an 'echo', culminates in the bringing into being of a Tree, which becomes the wonder of the neighbourhood, an echo of what was & an indicator of what may be. Sam's Mallorn 'is' Niggle's Tree - both are responsible for its being there, but it belongs to neither of them, & once that 'gift' is given both are free to move on. Sam goes through a 'workhouse' experience of his own, through Mordor, & what he achieves at the end of his journey is not 'salvation' either, because LotR is not about the workings of 'salvation' either, & neither does it end in 'eternal rest', just more, (but better) work.

08-31-2004, 12:58 PM	#18
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I think certainly the intent & motivation of the subcreator have a 'divine' origin for Tolkien, but what is produced comes from the subcreator, not from God - ie, the subcreator is not simply parroting what he has been given. My reading of the Niggle story is that God couldn't have created Niggle's Parish - man is a 'co-creator' with God. Man's creation's are unique, & could only have arisen in his mind, as a result of his experience, & that this is God's intention. God may, from His position outside time, know what will be, but He doesn't cause it to be. Only Niggle could have brought his subcreation into being (if only because if God had been responsible it would have been creation, not sub-creation). So LbN is the account of Niggle's perfection - he goes through the Workhouse in order to become what he was meant to be. He is made the most perfect subcreator he is capable of becoming. There's nothing in the story for me which implies that Niggle's eternal soul is in danger. There's no mention of hell, or damnation - the worst that could happen is that Niggle will remain in the workhouse until he is ready to leave. This seems, as I think about it, less & less like the Catholic Puragatory, & not even very much like the Halls of Mandos. Niggle is in the Workhouse for a purpose, & the purpose is revealed at the end to be the creation of Niggle's Parish, 'the best introduction to the Mountains'. Niggle has a task to achieve, divinely ordained, & that is to achieve what in the end he does achieve - along with Parish. The question of 'Salvation' doesn't come into it at any point, nor does 'damnation'. Niggle's 'journey', like Sam's, of which (as Fordim points out) it is an 'echo', culminates in the bringing into being of a Tree, which becomes the wonder of the neighbourhood, an echo of what was & an indicator of what may be. Sam's Mallorn 'is' Niggle's Tree - both are responsible for its being there, but it belongs to neither of them, & once that 'gift' is given both are free to move on. Sam goes through a 'workhouse' experience of his own, through Mordor, & what he achieves at the end of his journey is not 'salvation' either, because LotR is not about the workings of 'salvation' either, & neither does it end in 'eternal rest', just more, (but better) work. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."