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Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?
I think the nutty theory of Gandalf as Manwë is distinguished -- and elevated -- from hypothetical ramblings like Bombadil = Eru in this way: it is a possibility suggested by the prof himself.
Now, let me clarify. This is just a theory I'm testing out -- I'm not even sure I believe it myself. I'm defending a rather outrageous notion for the sake of stimulating conversation, and also because the idea seems to contain at least a germ of the truth. However, please feel free to abandon the thread if my boorish suggestions are neither stimulating nor intriguing, but only offensive to the sensibilities of a more informed Tolkien scholar.
Having said all that, I will offer a brief rebuttal if I may.<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> The board is set, and the pieces are moving. One piece that I greatly desire to find is Faramir, now the heir of Denethor.
In the night he [Pippin] was wakened by a light, and he saw that Gandalf had come and was pacing to and fro in the room beyond the curtain of the alcove. There were candles on the table and rolls of parchment. He heard the wizard sigh, and mutter: "When will Faramir return?"<hr></blockquote>
Gandalf seems unusually anxious for Faramir to return. I think we can discount personal concern as the reason for his eagerness. Gandalf had a fondness for Faramir, to be sure, but here's a key attribute of Gandalf's personality: he's not sentimental. His concern for his friends doesn't keep him from sending them into battle or cause him to fret over them when they may be in danger. Gandalf sounds like Faramir's girlfriend if he's only hoping he comes back so that he'll know he's safe.
As to "wanting information regarding movements of the Enemy"... I don't think that accounts for his eagerness either. Look -- he seems almost to doze through Faramir's accounts of military matters, which seem in any case of little interest:<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Removed a little upon the other side sat Gandalf in a chair of carven wood; and he seemed at first to be asleep. For at the beginning Faramir spoke only of the errand upon which he had been sent out ten days before, and he brought tidings of Ithilien and of movements of the Enemy and his allies; and he told of the fight on the road when the men of Harad and their great beast were overthrown: a captain reporting to his master such matters as had often been heard before, small things of border-war that now seemed useless and petty, shorn of their renown.<hr></blockquote>Are these "small things of border-war" the information that Gandalf has been staying up late pacing in his room hoping to hear? No. And he sits up and grips the arms of his chair, I might argue (I have), not out of "utter surprise" but because Faramir has finally gotten to the part that he's been eagerly hoping to hear about.
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Quote:<hr> Gandalf as Manwe? Highly doubtful. Gandalf was Manwe's "Steward" in Middle Earth for Manwe, the "king" of Arda.<hr></blockquote>But is not Manwë Ilúvatar's steward in Arda? This gives interesting possibilities of meaning to Gandalf's line to Denethor: "For I also am a steward. Did you not know?" <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Manwe was lord of the winds. Could he not have deflected the snowstorm from the Redhorn Pass?<hr></blockquote>Maybe. But remember that it turned out to be necessary to pass through Moria to pick up Gollum. As to Manwë being the lord of the winds, remember this, from Silm: <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> All swift birds, strong of wing, he loves, and they come and go at his bidding.<hr></blockquote>Who's always hitching a ride from eagles? That's right -- the G-man!<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Could the Balrog have slain Manwe?<hr></blockquote>As has been pointed out innumerable times, Gandalf was only figuratively "slain" by the Balrog. Having taken on human form and self-imposed limitations on how much power he could exhibit, I think it's entirely conceivable that Manwë/Gandalf could have been slain by the Balrog.<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> What of JRRT's writings concerning the need to "increase" Gandalf's power upon his return to Middle Earth? Would Manwe need such an increase in power?<hr></blockquote>But "increased" by whom? And sent back after "death" by whom? Not the Valar. In the Gandalf=Manwë scenario, Gandalf becomes even more of a Christ-like figure than I argued he might be in a previous thread. Ilúvatar's favorite son, sent to earth, his power and glory veiled in a humble aspect... I'm still of the mind, and haven't yet heard convincing arguments to the contrary, that the restraints on the power of Gandalf weren't "real" restraints, like some kind of spiritual restraining-bolt, but were more like a sort of "code of honor". Manwë had seen before that attempting to sway the people of M-E by force and displays of power and majesty had only resulted in great sorrow. So he returned with a revised agenda and modus operandi, as I have quoted above in a previous post. After his "death", Ilúvatar picked him up, dusted him off, and sent him back with the go-ahead to reveal a little more of the power that had previously been kept hidden.
Okay. So it wasn't so brief.
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Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/16/01 11:40:23 am