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Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .
Though I haven't had much time for lengthy posts of late, I have been keeping an eye on this and other discussions.
I'd forgotten about the vision the orc sees of Sam in the tower. That does seem a bit troublesome for my theory. I might argue that there's really no way for Frodo (as author of the Red Books from which LotR is derived) to know what the orc saw; this may just be supposition on his part. Or perhaps it's what Sam thinks the orc saw, or how Sam saw himself in that moment. Okay, I admit, my theory is becoming increasingly untenable, but I feel there are aspects of it which might bear being pushed a bit further:<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> When Sam is near the Tower of Cirith Ungol:
Out westward in the world it was drawing to noon upon the fourteenth day of March in the Shire-reckoning. And even now Aragorn was leading the black fleet from Pelargir, and Merry was riding with the Rohirrim down the Stonewain Valley, while in Minas Tirith flames were rising
and Pippin watched the madness growing in the eyes of Denethor. Yet amid all their cares and fear the thoughts of their friends turned constantly to Frodo and Sam. They were not forgotten. But they were far beyond aid, and no thought could yet bring any help to Samwise Hamfast's son; he was utterly alone.<hr></blockquote>I may be reaching here, but I notice that Gandalf is conspicuously absent from this list, perhaps implying that Sam and Frodo are
not beyond
his aid.
In "The Istari" in UT, there's an implication that Gandalf might actually be a manifestation of Manwë himself. To be sure, in the same paragraph the narrator remarks, "But I think it was not so." However, he brings up the idea himself, and does not unequivocally deny that it may be true – "I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was." Olórin in this scenario would be a mere “incognito” adopted by Manwë. On the next page there’s an extensive discussion of the etymology of “Olórin”. It’s a bit confusing, but seems in ways to support the idea that Gandalf could indeed have produced the visions. <blockquote>
Quote:<hr>
Olor is a word often translated as ‘dream’, but that doe not refer to (most) human ‘dreams’, certainly not the dreams of sleep. To the Eldar it included the vivid contents of their
memory, as of their
imagination, the mind, of things not physically present at the body’s situation. But not only to an idea, but to a full clothing of this in particular form and detail.
olo-s) made visible and sensible.
Olos is usually applied to
fair constructions having solely an artistic object (i.e., not having the object of deception, or of acquiring power).
These discussions of
olos, olor are clearly connected with the passage in the
Valaquenta where it is said that Olórin dwelt in Lórien in Valinor, and that…
“…though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.”<hr></blockquote>
Manwë was concerned with redressing the ancient wrongs of attempting “to guard and seclude the Eldar by their [the Valar’s] own might and glory fully revealed,” and so decided that the emissaries sent to Middle-earth should assume shapes “weak and humble”. <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.<hr></blockquote> Is it not possible that Manwë came himself to personally redress the wrongs for which he had principally been responsible? Though Olórin seemed at first glance to be the least of the Istari, he was perceived immediately by Cirdan as the most powerful of them, and Saruman also soon realized that Olórin had the greater power.
There are dozens of spots where JRRT coyly implies that Gandalf had foreknowledge of the role Hobbits would play in the grand scheme. Gandalf says to Frodo at one point:<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "About their origins... I know more than hobbits do themselves."<hr></blockquote> Is it possible that Hobbits were created specifically so that one day they could play a pivotal role in Sauron’s overthrow?
The most explicit references to Gandalf “arranging” the events that occurred are made in UT, in “The Quest of Erebor”. <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Then looking hard at Gandalf he [Gimli] went on: “But who wove the web? I do not think I have ever considered that before. Did you plan all this then, Gandalf?...<hr></blockquote>After Gimli’s questioning, Gandalf doesn’t reply for a long time, and then when he does, his answer is cryptic and evasive. <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> ...what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly.”
And at the end of another version:
[Gimli says:] “I do not really suppose that even now you are telling us all you know.” [to which Gandalf replies:] “Of course not.”<hr></blockquote>
A bit of a disjointed and rambling post, and I’m not sure how (or if) it addresses some of the points that have been made – but there it is. Some thoughts to chew on.
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Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/12/01 2:15:24 pm