[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 685
Re: umm

Whew! There’s a lot of ground to cover here, so this one will be a whopper. But I’m up for it.

Underhill straps on his debating armor and girds himself with his weapon of choice: Tolkien’s texts...

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.

What it does show is precedent for using a simile as a way to foreshadow the full reveal of a creature. We can’t simply take for granted the use of a metaphor, as you have done.

No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized.

In the case of the eagle, the shadow is “like the shape of great wings”. Well, isn’t the shadow actually “the shape of great wings”? Of course it is. Tolkien has used this technique before. That’s all I’m showing.

The "shadow" in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in "the Bridge..." they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.

I submit that Tolkien does show a pattern of portraying mysterious characters/creatures (especially his bad guys) as “shadows” until they draw close enough to be revealed. Viz:

It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller black shadow. The black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. (of a Nazgûl)

There came the soft sound of horses led with stealth along the lane. Outside the gate they stopped, and three black figures entered, like shades of night creeping across the ground. (of several Nazgûl)

Trembling he looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. (of the Barrow-wight)

We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. `Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. (of a Nazgûl)

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. (of – what else? – the Balrog)

'Yet if so, it was a black squirrel, and I saw no tail. 'Twas like a shadow on the ground, and it whisked behind a tree-trunk when I drew nigh and went up aloft as swift as any squirrel could.’ (of Gollum)

Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light… Soon he had passed, like a shadow into shadow, down the winding road, and behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge. (of the Nazgûl and his army)

Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. (of the Nazgûl and his winged steed)

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. (also of the winged Nazgûl steed)

Tolkien also frequently uses “like” in ways that shatter what you seem to perceive as the iron-bound rules for simile use. Not to belabor the point too far but here are a few instances:

But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter. (The sound is mingled song and laughter.)

A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature. (The wail is the cry of an evil and lonely creature.)

His watch was nearly over, when, far off where he guessed that the western archway stood, he fancied that he could see two pale points of light, almost like luminous eyes. (The points of light are (Gollum’s) luminous eyes.)

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author?

I’m saying that the versions you cite represent a refining process, and that attempting to figure out Tolkien’s “final intentions” from early drafts is often misleading. Your assertion that the drafts remained substantially unaltered is not correct. The earliest version (Vol 7., Sec II) doesn’t have references to either shadows or to wings. In early notes, Tolkien thought that Gandalf’s opponent might be a Nazgûl; in later notes, he wondered if the Balrog was actually Saruman. There was clearly a lot of work done here. If Tolkien wanted the Balrog to have a more menacing, imposing presence, is not equally reasonable to deduce from your references that he would add wings to achieve this effect?

In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as "arose" which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:

Neither Mithadan nor I have claimed that Tolkien used “arose” only in relation to flying creatures. We’ve merely cited two instances with startlingly similar construction referring to a winged creature.

As for "winged speed" by definition in this context the term winged means "move with wings or as if with wings" (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself).

1 a (1) : having wings "winged seeds" (2) : having wings of a specified kind -- used in combination <strong-winged> b : using wings in flight
2 a : soaring with or as if with wings.

In this case, “winged” can seemingly be read however the reader wants to read it (even your own definition says “move with wings”). But the use of the word “wing” in its various forms seems to be cropping up quite a bit, doesn’t it? Are you telling me that Tolkien, a master of the English language, a philologist by training and by nature, and a contributor to the Oxford English Dictionary, couldn’t come up with a different descriptive word to get his point clearly across? If you are, then I simply disagree with you.

This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:
Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...

It’s the “rivers of flame” (i.e, lava) that “ran down” here. It’s interesting that you use this reference. “Thangorodrim” refers to the sheer mountains reared above Angband, not the fortress itself. This analogy, especially when coupled with “flying from Thangorodrim” in LotR, is extremely suggestive of flight. See Thorondor’s rescue of Maedhros and Fingon. It’s a bit ridiculous to picture un-winged Balrogs running down sheer mountain faces.

As to the issue of their speed – I agree that they are speedy. Which to my mind argues in favor of wings. Nothing in Tolkien’s world (that I know of) travels faster than his winged creatures. His eagles, the Nazgûls’ winged steeds, and yes, the Balrogs, all travel with alarming speed.

Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument.

I am not disputing that "winged" can be used metaphorically. But again I have to wonder why "winged", "wings", "flying", etc. keep cropping up in relation to Balrogs.

Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?

At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...

I don’t think this contradicts my observation. This quote doesn’t say “They passed over the plains of Rohan”; it says they passed twice twelve leagues over the plains of Rohan.

We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way

It's war that has passed "over" the land. Tolkien often likens war to a tide or a wave. I still don't think this contradicts my thesis, though I admit I'm splitting hairs a bit here.

He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...

This doesn’t help your case, but rather supports mine. The Nazgûl were traveling on winged steeds by this point.

And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.

This quote unfortunately doesn’t help your case either, since it refers to Gandalf flying with the eagles.

They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...

Sounds to me like this describes climbing over the tumbled stones, not passing through a particular region.

...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn.

Again, no help. This describes a crossing of the Twilit Meres in ferry boats.

...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...

The Dagorlad is a battlefield, not a region. I admit, this one is cutting it close too, but I think the useage is proper here. They crossed the battlefield. Still, even with exceptions I think there is strong evidence of a pattern here.

From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...

The “Undeeps” are shallow bends in the river Anduin.

Hithlim is quite mountainous.

Where are you getting this from? Hithlum looks like a plain to me, and is often described as being “bounded” by various mountain ranges. And anyway, if it was mountainous, I fear that helps my argument more than it does yours, as mountainous terrain would tend to slow down landbound travel.

There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.

Whether you think it works or not, Tolkien did it. I have shown several precedents.

Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?

This is one of those questions that has no real answer, like “Why didn’t the good guys just use the eagles to fly them to the Cracks of Doom and throw the Ring in?” Since the Balrogs couldn’t breathe fire, like some dragons, I imagine they had to land to engage their enemies.

”In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined”

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.

It doesn’t say that the Balrogs weren’t flying. This little bit is a greatly compressed piece of action. I don’t think you can draw any conclusive facts from it one way or the other:

Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills. The heights of Dorthonion and Ered Wethrin held back the fiery torrents, but their woods upon the slopes that looked towards Angband were all kindled, and the smoke wrought confusion among the defenders. Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.

In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. And they assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies. Grey-elves and Men. Many of the stoutest of the foes of Morgoth were destroyed in the first days of that war, bewildered and dispersed and unable to muster their strength. War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden Flame is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onslaught of Morgoth grew less.

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more to come...

Lay on, Fingolfin! I’m ready!

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/26/01 6:30:45 pm