Mister Underhill wrote:
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Second, if you believe in a benevolent God who created humans and who desires them to be in accord with His truth, then I think you must also admit that humans must come equipped with some means of discerning truth from falsehood, right from wrong. This must be even more true in Middle-earth, where there is no received law from Eru to guide human behavior. We call this conscience, of course, and in this sense, I think Tolkien would not have looked too sharply on the “listen to your heart” line (cf. Romans 2:14-15).
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I'm glad you put a reference to that verse. I was wanting to quote it in my earlier post about the conscience, but I just couldn't remember where in the Bible it was at!
Diamond18 said:
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To clarify: I wasn't discounting a God-given conscience as giving people an innate sense of good and evil, but the "listen to your heart" line is one I've heard thrown out in so many movies as the answer to any dilemma, as if right and wrong originate in the heart (rather than being "written on it"). In most contexts I don't think that "heart" and "conscience" are the same thing, as people often feel impulses to do wrong, based on the desires of a corrupted heart. So, in other words, our conscience ofttimes tells us not to do what our heart desires.
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I think that a lot of times when someone says to follow your heart, they don't mean to follow your conscience. It seems to be tied more into emotion and what you want, rather than what is actually right. I guess it would depend on what context you mean it in.
Mister Underhill wrote:
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Good point, Helen, though I hasten to add that Gandalf is not a prophet in the true sense of that word, nor is he an angelic power in the sense that he serves as a herald for Eru, transmitting a direct message from him. He may be considered an angelic power in a way, of course, but a flawed and fallible one.
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I do see him as being like an angel in some ways. And in Christianity, some angels were flawed and fallible, as well. Satan himself was once an angel. But like Melkor or Sauron, his lust for power turned him bad.
Diamond18 said:
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Before I add my two cents I should say that most often philosophical discussions travel quite a few feet over my head, but I’ve made it through all these posts in one piece so I will try to state what I’m thinking as clearly as possible
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I've enjoyed your posts! It doesn't sound like you're in over your head. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I am a Christian, and do believe that God gave us a conscience, so we will know right from wrong. But by nature, often times we want to do something we know isn't right. That's what the conscience is for. To tell us what we're doing is wrong. And try to imagine a world without any morality at all. People would care mainly for themselves, would do what they wanted to do, regardless of how it might affect others. They would lie, steal, cheat, and kill if it would help them out. I don't think that morality is something that we humans have set up. I think it is ingrained in us. To bring this back around to Tolkien, here's an example. Why was Saruman bad? Sure, he had people killed, and yeah, he did follow Sauron, but was he really all that bad? I mean, he was just doing what he had to to achieve his goals and gain what he wanted. We consider him to be bad because we know the things he did to be wrong. Our sense of morality and our consciences tell us that it is wrong.
Well, I think I've gone on long enough!!
Arwen