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Priya · 09-21-2025, 12:51 PM

In repetition from my last post:

‘Where is the proof?’

Unfortunately - absolute proof is lacking. But I will say - no scholar has adequately tied in the faerie of Smith of Wootton Major or that delineated in OFS with both TLotR and the elf-related Silmarillion mythology. There is a disconnect here; yes a genuine knowledge gap. But to bridge it we must make a jump using logic. And if we do - much of the meaning behind the TLotR storyline unravels before us. So no proof - just some evidence and pointers.

To me, it’s obvious that Tolkien had a tricky problem - and it was bound to ‘his’ beloved Elves. Needed to be dealt with was the dilemma posed by those elves who chose to remain in Middle-earth after the Third Age. Those that had:

“… long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise …”.
– The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #154 – 25 September 1954, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981

What happened to them? Where did these immortals go? Where are they now? Believable answers had to be provided. And believability is probably what spurred him to change their fate* for The Lord of the Rings and ensuing mythology. Though Tolkien never provided explicit and detailed explanations**, nevertheless he left sufficient clues.

‘Meadow Elves’ by Nils Blommér, 1850

The spirit to body relationship for Elves was different than mankind’s. Repeatedly we were told that elven spirits slowly consumed their physical bodies from within. To mortal eyes – they faded.

But their bodies did not fade into nothingness. Instead, I contend, Tolkien eventually*** came up with the idea of them fading into another dimension: what I have termed Middle-earth Faërie. Such that in the Primary World they eventually became:

“The Lingerers whose bodily forms could no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully.”
- Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion 2 – pg. 224, 1993

And we know their disappearance occurred after:

“… the Third Age …” which was “… a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and changed world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, …”.
- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131 – late 1951, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981 (my underlined emphasis)

Yes, Eru had to have provided a fitting habitation (after the Third Age) for his longeval and beloved First Born – enamored with Middle-earth and unwilling to forsake it:

“The ‘waning’ of the Elvish hroar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, …”.
- Morgoth’s Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth – pg. 342, 1993 (Tolkien’s emphasis)

… Well having provided, what I think are, some decent reasons behind Tolkien’s inclusion of another faerie (both historical evidence of a faerie directly connected to Europe, and Tolkien penned hints as to the fate of lingering elves), it’s a good time to return to the ‘standing stone’ …

* We can glean this from the chronological development of the ‘Doom of Mandos’.

Before The Lord of the Rings ~1937:

“Slain or fading their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos …”. 
– The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Quenta IV – pg. 100

“… slain or wasted with grief, they died not from the earth, and their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos, …”.
– The Lost Road and other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion – pg. 247

But by 1958, after the publication of The Lord of the Rings:

“ ‘… those that endure in Middle-earth … shall wane, and become as shadows of regret …’ ”.
- Morgoth’s Ring, The Annals of Aman – pg. 118, 1993

** It must be emphasized that the various manuscripts making up the ‘Histories of the Elves’ (and Tolkien’s notes pertaining to them) are of the ‘Elder Days’. At this stage the phenomenon of ‘fading’ was a far future event. It is hinted that even the Valar were not fully aware of Eru’s plan. After Tolkien had ‘completed’ The Lord of the Rings and set it aside, we have ~1951:

“And some have said that the Vision ceased ere … the fading of the Firstborn; …”.
- Morgoth’s Ring, Ainulindale Version D – pg. 31, 1993

So it was impossible for Tolkien, as a reporter of records written long ago, to have been too explicit on this matter. For even by the end of the Third Age, ‘fading’ had not occurred. But in later times, closer to our own, we can reconcile the elves in a local otherworld per Smith of Wootton Major and the elves in ‘Faërie’ per On Fairy-stories as those once of Middle-earth faded into another dimension. The existence of a second Faërie then neatly, and completely ties up all of Tolkien’s mythological writings as regards the fate of the remaining Middle-earth elves.

*** The contention is that Tolkien abandoned the idea of elves (interchangeably termed fairies) becoming:

“… small and tenuous, filmy and transparent …”.
 – The Book of Lost Tales 2, The History of Eriol or Aelfwine – pg. 326

Because the reason for such changes, namely the waxing of men, simply wasn’t credible.

09-21-2025, 12:51 PM	#17
Priya Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28	In repetition from my last post: ‘Where is the proof?’ Unfortunately - absolute proof is lacking. But I will say - no scholar has adequately tied in the faerie of Smith of Wootton Major or that delineated in OFS with both TLotR and the elf-related Silmarillion mythology. There is a disconnect here; yes a genuine knowledge gap. But to bridge it we must make a jump using logic. And if we do - much of the meaning behind the TLotR storyline unravels before us. So no proof - just some evidence and pointers. To me, it’s obvious that Tolkien had a tricky problem - and it was bound to ‘his’ beloved Elves. Needed to be dealt with was the dilemma posed by those elves who chose to remain in Middle-earth after the Third Age. Those that had: “… long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise …”. – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #154 – 25 September 1954, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981 What happened to them? Where did these immortals go? Where are they now? Believable answers had to be provided. And believability is probably what spurred him to change their fate* for The Lord of the Rings and ensuing mythology. Though Tolkien never provided explicit and detailed explanations, nevertheless he left sufficient clues. ‘Meadow Elves’ by Nils Blommér, 1850 The spirit to body relationship for Elves was different than mankind’s. Repeatedly we were told that elven spirits slowly consumed their physical bodies from within. To mortal eyes – they faded. But their bodies did not fade into nothingness. Instead, I contend, Tolkien eventually* came up with the idea of them fading into another dimension: what I have termed Middle-earth Faërie. Such that in the Primary World they eventually became: “The Lingerers whose bodily forms could no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully.” - Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion 2 – pg. 224, 1993 And we know their disappearance occurred after: “… the Third Age …” which was “… a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and changed world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, …”. - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131 – late 1951, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981 (my underlined emphasis) Yes, Eru had to have provided a fitting habitation (after the Third Age) for his longeval and beloved First Born – enamored with Middle-earth and unwilling to forsake it: “The ‘waning’ of the Elvish hroar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, …”. - Morgoth’s Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth – pg. 342, 1993 (Tolkien’s emphasis) … Well having provided, what I think are, some decent reasons behind Tolkien’s inclusion of another faerie (both historical evidence of a faerie directly connected to Europe, and Tolkien penned hints as to the fate of lingering elves), it’s a good time to return to the ‘standing stone’ … * We can glean this from the chronological development of the ‘Doom of Mandos’. Before The Lord of the Rings ~1937: “Slain or fading their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos …”.  – The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Quenta IV – pg. 100 “… slain or wasted with grief, they died not from the earth, and their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos, …”. – The Lost Road and other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion – pg. 247 But by 1958, after the publication of The Lord of the Rings: “ ‘… those that endure in Middle-earth … shall wane, and become as shadows of regret …’ ”. - Morgoth’s Ring, The Annals of Aman – pg. 118, 1993 ** It must be emphasized that the various manuscripts making up the ‘Histories of the Elves’ (and Tolkien’s notes pertaining to them) are of the ‘Elder Days’. At this stage the phenomenon of ‘fading’ was a far future event. It is hinted that even the Valar were not fully aware of Eru’s plan. After Tolkien had ‘completed’ The Lord of the Rings and set it aside, we have ~1951: “And some have said that the Vision ceased ere … the fading of the Firstborn; …”. - Morgoth’s Ring, Ainulindale Version D – pg. 31, 1993 So it was impossible for Tolkien, as a reporter of records written long ago, to have been too explicit on this matter. For even by the end of the Third Age, ‘fading’ had not occurred. But in later times, closer to our own, we can reconcile the elves in a local otherworld per Smith of Wootton Major and the elves in ‘Faërie’ per On Fairy-stories as those once of Middle-earth faded into another dimension. The existence of a second Faërie then neatly, and completely ties up all of Tolkien’s mythological writings as regards the fate of the remaining Middle-earth elves. *** The contention is that Tolkien abandoned the idea of elves (interchangeably termed fairies) becoming: “… small and tenuous, filmy and transparent …”.  – The Book of Lost Tales 2, The History of Eriol or Aelfwine – pg. 326 Because the reason for such changes, namely the waxing of men, simply wasn’t credible. Last edited by Priya; 10-07-2025 at 03:59 PM.