[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

But my idea would be that if the Numenorean RIng bearers represent the three Houses of the Edain, the remains of these Houses in Middle-Earth shouldn't get a Ring. That would be like Dúrin holding one Rings and the Comander of the mines in the Iron Hills get a nother one so he is remote a Cousin of Durin. (If he comes from an other House, he might get it)

This was in my mind also, but I ignored it. I was treating the Three Houses as like the Three Tribes of the Eldar: everyone was kin to the Haladin or the Hadorians, with the Beorians as a weird spinoff of pre-Hador. But that's really not supported by the text.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Now for the 3 Numenorean bears I have nothing to add to Huinesoron's through analysis. But for the other 6 I doubt any connection farther connection to the three Houses of the Edain. I would rather look to the Houses of the Easterlings: Ulfdor and Bor. So we can not know if Khamul had any connection to these Houses. If not I would rather think 3 for the western Houses (Edain => Nomenorians), three for the Easterlings, and three for the Southeners.

Your mention of Uldor and Bor sent me on an investigation of them, and I think there might be something there... I'll come back to that.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

For example, you might argue that Isilmo, on his death's door, decided to take up one of the Nine...but...Sauron didn't visit Numenor until he was brought there by Pharazon; and I doubt the very elderly Isilmo would be making voyages to Middle-earth - and even if he did, why would Sauron entrust one of the Nine to someone who either:

Yeah okay, I got his dates wrong. My bad, I thought there was more overlap.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Which leads me to my problem with the rest of your post - why would Sauron seek out some obscure remnant of, say, the Haladin (who were all but gone at this point in every relevant way) if his goal was to pick out influential figures across Numenor and Middle-earth?

After all, that was the entire point of him giving away the Great Rings in the first place!

With that said, the 3 Numenorean Nazgul were IMO all colonists.

I took the "3 Numenoreans = 3 Edain houses" from Findegil and ran with it; I think a prince, a high lord, and the master shipwright wouldn't be implausible as Sauron's picks. But you're right that they would need to be over in Middle-earth to be actually given the rings, which two of those... wouldn't be.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

...or maybe the Witch-king was Tal-elmar . (I'm only c. 80% joking here actually.)

Okay so this occured to me independently earlier today. Let's go with it! Tal-Elmar must have lived post-1869, when the Numenoreans switched from teaching to conquest; and he lived "on an estuary of Isen", per Tolkien's notes.

- Tal-Elmar is the Witch-King. He obviously discovers his Numenorean heritage: Elmar his grandmother was a Hadorian, from an offshoot of the royal house. He winds up as Lord of Lond Daer, and is also proclaimed King of Agar as heir to his father. (This explains the crown Frodo sees, which must have been his in life to have faded with him.) He's a perfect target for Sauron, who he already served by inheritance and culture. But why Lord of Lond Daer? Because it lets me do this:

- The second Numenorean is the Lord of Umbar, which I think is in place by this point. He's presumably the Haladin Nazgul, if we're still doing that, because:

- The third is the Lord of Pelargir, or Edhellond, or Dol Amroth, or wherever the Numenorean settlement about Anduin was at this point. He's a Beoring, one of what will later become known as the Faithful.

Sauron's goal is to subvert the Numenorean presence in Middle-earth. He succeeds admirably with Tal-Elmar, basically removing Lond Daer as a source of attack. The other two aren't as successful.

So what about the Easterlings of the First Age? Akallabeth tells us that the survivors of the "evil Men" became kings in the "unharvested lands" back east, ruling over wandering folk who had obeyed neither Morgoth nor the Valar. Could this be the north of Eriador (the obvious place for them to flee)? Could it be possible that:

- The Nazgul of Ulfang's house was a ruler in what would later become Angmar. If there were people there, Sauron would want them, because it gives him a good angle to threaten Imladris.

Meanwhile, the Grey Annals tell us that the people of Bor were the ancestors of "the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age". It looks like the Haladin pre-Numenoreans migrated "as far north as the Barrow-Downs", so could the Borians have been the group that first built the Barrows? This would have been a people broadly friendly to the Elves, so Sauron would like to take control of them.

- The Nazgul of Bor's house was a lord somewhere in future Cardolan or Arthedain.

And while we're here:

- Khamul was the easternmost Nazgul. His people were the ancestors of the Wainriders, which is why Sauron was able to move them so far to come attack Gondor later.

That leaves three. Khand, Rhun, and (near) Harad? If Sauron's purpose is to build an alliance against Numenor, then probably: those are the lands he would want to draw on. This probably makes Khamul the original least-important Nazgul; his people were just a fallback plan, in case something happened that meant Sauron had to retreat east. It was only once, well, something happened, that Khamul became Sauron's most important asset: the immortal sorcerer-king of a vast people who his enemies didn't even know existed. That's why his name is remembered: because it was actually in continuous use in his far-eastern dominions.

This is all still very very fanfic, but I think it's fun. ^_^

hS