[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

- The birth of Galadriel. With the timelines we have, she cannot simultaneously be pre-adult at the Darkening, and older than the Silmarils, but that's what the two latest sources tell us. If Tolkien wanted to reconcile them, he would have needed to dramatically reduce the timeline between those two events, and he never indicated such a change.

- The birth of Aredhel. I'm annoyed by this, because it's actually one of the last dates Tolkien added to the Annals of Aman. But the Annals make the Aman years about 1.5x the length they are in later timelines, and I just can't fit her in before the Silmarils are created without pretty much inventing dates for all Finwe's descendents. So she has been excluded.

Does your project treat works published during Tolkien's lifetime as taking precedence over those that are later but unpublished?

I ask because I think that Galadriel being pre-adult at the Darkening is at odds with what is said about her in The Road Goes Ever On (p. 60):

She [Galadriel] was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth.

- emphasis mine


Well, technically, not literally at odds with it, but rather I find it unlikely (or at least unsatisfactory) that a teenager (for all intents and purposes) was one of the principal leaders of the rebellion of the Noldor. (Her being pre-adult would also drastically reduce her share of responsibility in the rebellion IMO.)

And, regardless of how you feel about the above argument, I'd still think the simplest solution to all this mess with Galadriel is to just bite the bullet and incorporate the AAm date instead (which also solves the Aredhel problem since they share the same birth year).

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

- The Awakening of Men. Tolkien wanted this to be both well before the fall of the Trees, and at least 50 (long) Valian Years after the Awakening of the Quendi. But he also wanted only 38 VY between Elves awakening and the Trees going dark. It doesn't fit; I'd have to invent a date.

I'm curious about how you would handle this (even though you said you wouldn't, but, indulge me?).

Not quite sure if this was Tolkien's 'final' idea (pretty sure it isn't, actually), but my favorite is the one where Sauron was responsible for the fall of Men (which at least gives a clear lower limit for the Awaking of Men, which is after Melkor is taken captive).



EDIT: I was thinking that, perhaps, it is possible to Sherlock our way to a rough date of the Awaking of Men by constraining the dates via the clues given to us about the Awaking of the Dwarves. There are two major sets of evidence I'd like to present.


1) In The War of the Jewels, there are two rough dates given for the Awaking of the Dwarves:

- a) the Dwarves awake at about the same time that the Eldar leave for Valinor (dates from c. 1958):

But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.

- WotJ, 'Later Quenta', 'Concerning the Dwarves', Text 'e', pp. 211-2


- b) the Dwarves are already awake before the Eldar reached Beleriand (dates from c. 1959/1960):

Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin [Petty-dwarves], who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.

- WotJ, 'Quendi and Eldar', 'Appendix B', 'The Petty-dwarves', pp. 388-9

So, in conclusion, if we adopt the earlier 1.a, then the Dwarves awake either in c. VY 870 (Noldor and Vanyar depart) or c. VY 872 (Teleri depart). Alternatively, if adopt the later 1.b, then the Dwarves awake some time before c. VY 869.


The next piece of evidence is:

2) In The Peoples of Middle-earth, there are likewise two contradictory ideas as to when the Dwarves awake in relation to Men:

- a) the Awaking of the Dwarves precedes that of Men (dates from c. 1969):

They refer to legends of the Ages of Awakening and the arising of the Speaking Peoples: first the Elves, second the Dwarves (as they claimed), and third Men.

- PoME, 'Of Dwarves and Men', Note 21, pp. 321-2


- b) the Awaking of the Dwarves postdates that of Men (dates from c. 1972/3):

Durin I, eldest of the Fathers, 'awoke' far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men), ...

- PoME, 'Last Writings', p. 383

Therefore, depending on whether we adopt 2.a or 2.b, the Awaking of Men either predates (2.b) or postdates (2.a) the Awaking of the Dwarves - whose awaking took place either in c. VY 870-2 (1.a), or some time before c. VY 869 (1.b).


In other words, if we assume the later texts from both 1 and 2, the Dwarves should awake before c. VY 869, and Men should awake not long before the Dwarves.

To be perfectly honest, I kind of prefer the earlier version of 1 (1.b) because it at least gives us a nice, concrete figure (VY 870/2) - and if we take the 'Dwarves awake when the Elves leave for Valinor' to mean 'when the Teleri leave', then that gives us c. VY 872 as the date for the Awaking of the Dwarves: and since it is said in 2.b that the Dwarves awoke shortly after Men, depending on your definition of 'shortly', one could put a provisional date for the Awaking of Men as, say, c. VY 870 (departure of Noldor and Vanyar). Which also means that Men existed for almost 3,000 years before they arrived in Beleriand.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.


P.S. What do you think about this timeline (based on yours) that I found on reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans...ted_first_age/

+ the image (https://i.imgur.com/VZ3LnUK.png)