[Eurytus]

Legolas lets see if we can make any sense of circular reasoning such as this;

quote:

When did this occur? The Nazgul did not command the battle of the pelenor fields after the Witchking died and it is extremely unlikely that they were commanding the battle in front of the black gate from the air. This would hardly be efficient. So which battle did they command?

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When would it not occur? With the Witch-King gone and Sauron being undoubtedly familiar with the capabilities of the Nazgul, if necessary, he would place his will behind them.

and

Additionally, nowhere is it stated that the Mouth of Sauron could, nor does he even participate in battles that we know of.

So according to you, the fact that the Nazgul are NOT shown to command any armies does not mean that they would not in the future. And yet, the Mouth of Sauron not participating in any battles during the story rules him out???

You do not need to command armies to be a second in command. And you cannot use what the Nazgul might have done in support of you argument.

Um...what? Whether you think it to be efficient or not, the Witch-King was doing it.

The Witchking was not commanding the battle of the Pelenor fields from the winged beast. He took to the air to deal with Theoden.
You tried to communciate commands from 300 feet up? They didn't have walkie talkies you know.

You did miss the point again - if the Mouth of Sauron was second in command, I assert that he would've been given his own post already (like Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul) as opposed to being the Lt. of Barad-dur where Sauron was...Barad-dur was under Sauron's direct supervision (as in his physical presence was there).

No YOU missed the point. Let me break it down for you. I have stated that at the time the parley at the gate occurred, the Mouth was 2nd in command. Who commanded Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul before this point is totally irrelevant.

Treebeard as well as any other character in the story (though least of all Gandalf) is just that - a character - and not Tolkien himself, the author.

Your whole argument about whether the Mouth's comments were based on his own viewpoint of what was to happen is because you have already decided that he is not to be 2nd in command. Bottom line is that there is reference in the text that he was to be 2nd in command and there is no contradiction in Tolkien's writings to state otherwise.
Your counterpoint is therefore only based on your own opinions.

Surely no messenger would be second in command.

Ever heard of Rudolf Hess, 2nd in command to Hitler, flew to Scotland as a messenger?

Come to think of it what was Aragorn doing at the gate. On the surface he was there to relay a message to Sauron was he not? And he's 1st in command...

If simply being stated to be "Sauron's lieutenant" makes the Mouth of Sauron second in command, so too is Khamul - this can't be right, for Khamul is "second to the Chief," "the Second Chief" for there is one who outranks him.

Not true since nowhere does it state that Khamul is still a lieutenant at this time. He was lieutenant in Dol Guldur prior to the events in LOTR taking place. This is irrelevant as to what would have happened after.

Does this not show the Mouth's big head? It clearly does.

No, it shows that the Mouth thinks being a spokesman for a godlike entity is of greater worth than being king of a kingdom that he believes is about to be destroyed.
From his viewpoint its hard to argue with him.
Even were he bigheaded it does not change the fact that Tolkien WROTE that he was to be Sauron's lieutenant in Isengard and NEVER contradicted that.

Sauron can place his will behind them...instruct them to do something. That quote does not mean that the Nazgul have no battle commanding authority at all.

If Sauron has to place his will behind them for them to be effective battle commanders then he might as well command the forces himself. A commander who cannot function without the guidance of his superior is worthless in warfare.


In summary the text states that the Mouth is to be Sauron's lieutenant and hold sway over the tribute realms and nowhere does Tolkien counter this.

Your comments about the nature of the Nazgul and whether the Mouth was a braggart are solely based on your opinion and therefore cannot contradict something that Tolkien wrote in LOTR.