The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Discussion--Dragons: Good or Evil?

07-31-2003, 01:48 AM

Prepare for a long rant now. ^.^; As per Dragons, their being my special object of interest and study, and a few of my views on them, but not all.. that would take too long and would quite possibly be a little hard to swallow for the more material-minded..

One important thing I've noticed about Tolkien is that his stories and mythologies are very much drawn on themes present in other mythologies and legends. His Dragons draw from legend in many ways as do other things (for example, the creation of the world using some kind of sound). Although it seems to be unclear just what exactly is the origin of the spirits of Dragons. Maiar perhaps, I saw it discussed in another thread.

The place of Dragons in real legend is unmistakable; they are revered either as powerful and wise beings, or feared and reviled as monsters. Their being feared and reviled is, more or less, something of a Christian addition to legend, as Christians did a lot of destroying/changing/adding to stories and legends. Dragons were an important symbol to the old pagan religions and hence were dubbed 'evil' along with other pagan symbols. Thus explaining the look of Satan as a Dragon in the bible.. although, Dragons do exist otherwise in the bible (Leviathan for example) and there are of course many other stories of Dragons in many different cultures. Also pertaining to the fact that there are stories of Dragons in every culture, including cultures that had no contact with the others. In Asian and Celtic cultures especially, Dragons were respected and revered. Dragons are also a most certain archetype in the human psyche, an archetype of power. Whether a wise power or a power to be feared is up to the individual.

One pretty common role of the Dragon in legend is that OF creator, or original being, and indeed that theme has been taken up by a lot of fantasy works. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with the story of Tiamat; and there are variations on that story in other cultures. The Dragon, being the essential and absolute beginning power of primeval chaos. Usually, this original Dragon is slain and then, the other gods and men are able to create order in the world. So Dragons are most often represented as beings of chaos. Humans, being quite used to the order and unchanging nature of the physical world, differ so greatly in this perspective from Dragons and their tendency to chaos, tend to see them as evil. Generally, I see these two types of minds.. those leaning towards order and those towards chaos, to be relatively incompatible. Each would endanger the other's way of life, hence the fear. While chaos is not strictly evil it is often thought to be so.

Another very good point brought up in an earlier post was this quote: "Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good." This is quite an exceptional viewpoint. Be it the work of a God or not, the world itself does exist within a universe, and because all things within the universe are part of that universe, we can assume that, even in the face of a chaotic and constantly changing existence or universe, all things will be playing a part. Good and evil to me seem to be interpretations based on the fears and needs of people. If something is a part of a world, it is a part of it, and while you can label it with good or evil, that does not change the fact that it belongs to that world in some way.

Dragons, as I have seen anyway, while they may have a tendency toward chaos or other traits or states of mind, are indeed individuals, intelligent ones, not beasts in any sense. They seem to have a deep understanding of things but their minds are so alien that perhaps to classify them in human terms is a bit unfair. Can we truly understand motivations that are so far removed from our own? I know it's extremely hard for me to understand what motivations some types of people. Dragon motivations, while close to home, are nevertheless still a bit elusive to me. Again, that would depend on the Dragon. This difference in mindset is probably one of the factors that sets Dragons to an extreme indifference to the affairs of humans. We don't care too much about how ants live their lives do we? And if we do, it's a purely scholary interest. I would think that it might be the same for Dragons who have an interest in the human experience. It's something different from their own. And in addition, most of us don't care a whit about crushing an ant or six.

My intepretation tends to be that Dragons remain in the human psyche because of a distant memory. Not dinosaurs or extinct animals, but a distinct race, here for some purpose or other, which probably, due to growing mistrust and a definate deviation of common interest, left from this world in some way or another. Whether they were slain in physical form to return to where-ever spirits go or whether they actively chose to abandon those forms, or indeed whether they ever had them in the first place?

Okay, this is getting long and rambly. o.O; Anyways, there were a couple assertations about Dragons in the 'real world' that I saw-- one saying they were wicked, and one saying they were just animals. Dragons are commonly considered to be fantasy creatures. Because of evidence and my own experience, I believe (know, if you like) that they are much more than that. There is the fact of their widespread influence in psyche and legend. And then there is the fact that I have seen them.

I also saw a post with different Dragon types-- which just brings to mind to me my point about order and chaos ^.^; Humans! Trying to classify a chaotic being! Dragons as far as I have seen can look like anything they want; there is such a wide variety of shape and form and color and design. It almost seems to be a matter of mood and personal taste, and not a product of evolution or any other such stricture. This too, I think, reflects something of the reality of Dragons and their chaotic nature.

Okay, I think I'm going to shut up now. In terms of book recommendations; Elvenbane had a lot of draconic seeming truth, but the Dragons in my opinion acted far too human. The dancing in the thunderstorms bit struck me dumb though. Because it was in that exact activity that I saw them one time.

Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly I HIGHLY recommend. It is by far the best portrayal of a Dragon character I've ever read in a fictional book. Although I would certainly have to call Smaug a close second. ^.^ As for other Dragon books, the Dragon Circle trilogy by Craig Shaw Gardner is quite good and Song in the Silence by Elizabeth Kerner is good as well..

07-31-2003, 01:48 AM	#73
VioLyn Guest Posts: n/a	Prepare for a long rant now. ^.^; As per Dragons, their being my special object of interest and study, and a few of my views on them, but not all.. that would take too long and would quite possibly be a little hard to swallow for the more material-minded.. One important thing I've noticed about Tolkien is that his stories and mythologies are very much drawn on themes present in other mythologies and legends. His Dragons draw from legend in many ways as do other things (for example, the creation of the world using some kind of sound). Although it seems to be unclear just what exactly is the origin of the spirits of Dragons. Maiar perhaps, I saw it discussed in another thread. The place of Dragons in real legend is unmistakable; they are revered either as powerful and wise beings, or feared and reviled as monsters. Their being feared and reviled is, more or less, something of a Christian addition to legend, as Christians did a lot of destroying/changing/adding to stories and legends. Dragons were an important symbol to the old pagan religions and hence were dubbed 'evil' along with other pagan symbols. Thus explaining the look of Satan as a Dragon in the bible.. although, Dragons do exist otherwise in the bible (Leviathan for example) and there are of course many other stories of Dragons in many different cultures. Also pertaining to the fact that there are stories of Dragons in every culture, including cultures that had no contact with the others. In Asian and Celtic cultures especially, Dragons were respected and revered. Dragons are also a most certain archetype in the human psyche, an archetype of power. Whether a wise power or a power to be feared is up to the individual. One pretty common role of the Dragon in legend is that OF creator, or original being, and indeed that theme has been taken up by a lot of fantasy works. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with the story of Tiamat; and there are variations on that story in other cultures. The Dragon, being the essential and absolute beginning power of primeval chaos. Usually, this original Dragon is slain and then, the other gods and men are able to create order in the world. So Dragons are most often represented as beings of chaos. Humans, being quite used to the order and unchanging nature of the physical world, differ so greatly in this perspective from Dragons and their tendency to chaos, tend to see them as evil. Generally, I see these two types of minds.. those leaning towards order and those towards chaos, to be relatively incompatible. Each would endanger the other's way of life, hence the fear. While chaos is not strictly evil it is often thought to be so. Another very good point brought up in an earlier post was this quote: "Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good." This is quite an exceptional viewpoint. Be it the work of a God or not, the world itself does exist within a universe, and because all things within the universe are part of that universe, we can assume that, even in the face of a chaotic and constantly changing existence or universe, all things will be playing a part. Good and evil to me seem to be interpretations based on the fears and needs of people. If something is a part of a world, it is a part of it, and while you can label it with good or evil, that does not change the fact that it belongs to that world in some way. Dragons, as I have seen anyway, while they may have a tendency toward chaos or other traits or states of mind, are indeed individuals, intelligent ones, not beasts in any sense. They seem to have a deep understanding of things but their minds are so alien that perhaps to classify them in human terms is a bit unfair. Can we truly understand motivations that are so far removed from our own? I know it's extremely hard for me to understand what motivations some types of people. Dragon motivations, while close to home, are nevertheless still a bit elusive to me. Again, that would depend on the Dragon. This difference in mindset is probably one of the factors that sets Dragons to an extreme indifference to the affairs of humans. We don't care too much about how ants live their lives do we? And if we do, it's a purely scholary interest. I would think that it might be the same for Dragons who have an interest in the human experience. It's something different from their own. And in addition, most of us don't care a whit about crushing an ant or six. My intepretation tends to be that Dragons remain in the human psyche because of a distant memory. Not dinosaurs or extinct animals, but a distinct race, here for some purpose or other, which probably, due to growing mistrust and a definate deviation of common interest, left from this world in some way or another. Whether they were slain in physical form to return to where-ever spirits go or whether they actively chose to abandon those forms, or indeed whether they ever had them in the first place? Okay, this is getting long and rambly. o.O; Anyways, there were a couple assertations about Dragons in the 'real world' that I saw-- one saying they were wicked, and one saying they were just animals. Dragons are commonly considered to be fantasy creatures. Because of evidence and my own experience, I believe (know, if you like) that they are much more than that. There is the fact of their widespread influence in psyche and legend. And then there is the fact that I have seen them. I also saw a post with different Dragon types-- which just brings to mind to me my point about order and chaos ^.^; Humans! Trying to classify a chaotic being! Dragons as far as I have seen can look like anything they want; there is such a wide variety of shape and form and color and design. It almost seems to be a matter of mood and personal taste, and not a product of evolution or any other such stricture. This too, I think, reflects something of the reality of Dragons and their chaotic nature. Okay, I think I'm going to shut up now. In terms of book recommendations; Elvenbane had a lot of draconic seeming truth, but the Dragons in my opinion acted far too human. The dancing in the thunderstorms bit struck me dumb though. Because it was in that exact activity that I saw them one time. Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly I HIGHLY recommend. It is by far the best portrayal of a Dragon character I've ever read in a fictional book. Although I would certainly have to call Smaug a close second. ^.^ As for other Dragon books, the Dragon Circle trilogy by Craig Shaw Gardner is quite good and Song in the Silence by Elizabeth Kerner is good as well..