[Pitchwife]

Ivriniel: Agreed that Covenant raping Lena and the repercussions of that act are a big thing in the Chronicles, but I'd say it was a result of the conflict between leprosy and fantasy - of his emotional numbness being unable to cope with a world of healing and beauty. By the time he met their daughter he still wasn't ready to accept the Land as fully real, but at least he was taking it seriously enough not to give in to her attempts at seducing him. (Gosh, that does sound like GRR Martin, doesn't it? Balanced, fortunately, by some healthy and adorable lovemaking - Covenant and Linden on Starfare's Gem, awww! And yes, I love Linden too.)

In the Gap series, on the other hand, sex is mostly linked to issues of power and control - Angus over Morn, Morn over herself (after Angus gives her the control device) and thus over Nick. Different animal, I'd say. (There's also a strong undercurrent of mothers, motherhood and giving birth - Angus's abusive mom, Bryony Hyland and her importance to Morn and Davies, Morn herself, Norna Fasner - even the Amnion by virtue of their name.)

Got to confess btw that I absolutely love Angus - as a literary character, mind you, he's just unforgettable! - , and I cheered for him at the end of This Day All Gods Die, even while empathizing with Morn's relief to be rid of him. No small feat for an author, is it? You know, it occurs to me that he's maybe Donaldson's version of Gollum, or a gollumish character: murderous, depraved, despicable, but also pitiable once you learn more about him, and one who actually repents in the end and finds such redemption as he's capable of.

Yes, Donaldson sticks at nought if the story needs it, does he? And he spares neither his readers nor his characters. Especially not the latter - but although he may grind them in the mud he never leaves them there. Tolkien's protagonists show us what to aspire to, which is a great and noble thing. But Donaldson's protagonists - the ones like Covenant and Linden, or Morn and Angus - show us what we fear we are, or might become - and how to pick ourselves up from guilt and failure, accept and transcend.

Which brings me back to Frodo by the long and crooked. Covenant and Linden both have Despite within them (whether they 'create it' or not, I'm not sure how we got to that debate), both had to learn not to be led by its temptation, and thus they're both called and qualified to combat the exterior Despiser (also because they can wield white gold, which may be tied up with this somehow.) Frodo, On the other hand (as Morth said upthread and Firefoot rightly reminds us), Frodo as we first meet him, before the Ring has a chance to work on him, has none of the Sauronic will to power in him. (Heck, he gave up most of his earthly possessions just to see Bilbo again! Doesn't get much more un-Sauronic, does it? The quotes I gave upthread, where he dominates Gollum, clearly show the influence of the Ring, I'd say.) He has no inner Sauron to overcome to begin with, and therefore can't and needn't combat exterior Evil the way Donaldson's heroes do.

I'm thinking the whole 'creativity and evil' thing might perhaps warrant its own thread, after some searching for precedence, and I still need to digest all that 'spectral' stuff near the end of your post.

Firefoot: Thanks for your perceptive comments! I don't really think Donaldson had applicability on his radar at all. Just because Middle-earth and its history don't mirror our reality in a one-to-one way doesn't mean there's no thematic connection at all - on the contrary, precisely because they don't they can be applied to a wide variety of questions, experiences and contexts, and I don't think Donaldson was so unperceptive not to see that.

But I think he was talking about the characters, not the roles. What he's saying, if I understand him right, is that the archetypal roles of the epic tradition - brave hero, just and rightful king, fair lady, wise mentor, monstrous adversaries, etc. - don't fit our social and emotional experience anymore, and if we try to see ourselves in them we're, well, roleplaying, pretending, dissociating ourselves from our reality.

And he was talking pro domo, of course, because he was writing (or had just written) the story of a modern 'real world' character who finds himself at the cusp of an epic conflict but rejects the heroic role he feels the denizens of the Land are forcing on him, and how in the end he achieves heroism after all in his personal and convoluted way, through guilt and failure. In that he wasn't as far from Tolkien as he thought - the Professor, too, gave center stage to the hobbits in LotR, stand-ins for common people, and turned the more traditionally heroic types like Aragorn and Boromir into support characters.

I love your quote from Card (another author whose works are dear to me)! Didn't Finrod speak to Andreth of that joy by which the Elves discern that they've heard truth? (At least I thought he does, but when I tried to find the quote right now it eluded me like a rabbit hiding in its burrow.) And maybe Donaldson isn't so far from that either with "Joy is in the ears that hear."