[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Do you mean that Fui Nienna in The Book of Lost Tales is more evil than Melko, or Ungweliantë, or Tevildo King of Cats, or than many Orcs and Balrogs? Then I disagree. That Fui Nienna is “almost evil” is not I think, ever said by Tolkien. As a critical reader I therefore may not accept at its face value what seems to me to be gross exaggeration.

Declaring them to be basically the same character seems to me a gross exaggeration.

Okay I might have oversimplified, you might have oversimplified, I will explain how I came to my conclusions.

I should have called her perhaps sinister, but she does have elements in her character that can be interpreted as evil (I'll explain later). The difference between characters like Fui, Makrar and Measse (thanks for bringing them up) is that their "evil" is still worked within the dominion of Manwe, they never rebel against him whearas Melko and his ilk did.
How did you conclude that I said Fui was more evil than Melko? Do you suggest that Nienna from the Silmarillion is "more good" than Morgoth is evil? Then you should see how far removed she is from Fui.

Fui Nienna is indeed the spirit of death (of Men) in The Book of Lost Tales, but is she indeed totally the spirit of despair? Neil Gaiman’s endless who is called Despair, in his series The Sandman, seems to me a far grimmer and darker being, while Neil Gaiman’s endless Death is, as a person, far more cheerful and understanding.

Fui Nienna is a spirit of despair, she weaves dark clouds that settle upon the world as "despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief" settling upon people like "lightless webs" (BOLT Part 1, Chapter she creates these things, not Melko and is responsible for them.
In this early stage the idea of salvation (or even of Arda Marred) has not yet entered the mythology and the world of BOLT is a much darker place than Arda would eventually become.

Neil Gaiman's Death and Despair have no relevance to the discussion, a completely different mythology, a completely different writer. I know you wanted to make the point "Spirit of Death does not necessarily equal Spirit of Despair" but in this case Fui Nienna is both the Goddess of Despair and the judge of dead mortals.

Mandos and Fui Nienna remain ranked among the Valar, and while relating what might be thought to be dreadful things of them, he voices no criticism. Both remain among the Valar in Tolkien’s later writing whereas the war deities Makar and Meássë are to some degree sneered at by Tolkien and neither is mentioned beyond The Book of Lost Tales.

Makar and Measse I think were an experiment by Tolkien that did not work out, especially not with the later mythology.
Fui Nienna doesn't really do anything in the story, she never takes action, she just sits in her hall unleashing the emotions of despair and sorrow upon the world. She would not have worked in the later mythology either
She did remain a Vala, but only after being completely overhauled by Tolkien, can you imagine Silmarillion Nienna sitting in a hall with a ceiling made of bat wings, sending the souls of men to be tortured by Morgoth and then unleashing her black nets of despair upon Middle Earth?
And on a similar note, can you imagine Gandalf learning wisdom and compassion from a hag like Fui?

She had to be turned into the exact opposite direction to work in the new mythology.
Tolkien could have easily done that with Makar and Measse, making them guardians and heroic slayers of Melkor's creations, but chose not to do so, possibly because the Valar already "noble" warriors in the form of Tulkas and Orome.

Compare the whole transformation process with characters like Yavanna, Orome, Tulkas or even Varda, who changed much less in the transition.

Tolkien himself says nothing about this. Vui Nienna’s counterpart in Norse myth would be the godess Hel, whose apparent age is not mentioned in existent texts. Similarly in the Sumerian/Babylonian tales the death goddess is Ereskigal, the elder sister of Inanna/Ishtar, who corresponds most closely to Tolkien’s Vána, but otherwise there is no mention of Ereshkigal’s apparent age. In the Norse Prose Edda the god Thor is defeated by the allegorical figure of Old Age (Elli), who appears in the guise of an old woman. This is the closest I can come to fitting a mythological pattern to your interpretation of Tolkien.

Hell is a good counterpart to Fui Nienna and when I read the tet the first time I assumed she was the inspiration for her.

Ereskigal and Inanna/Ishtar are not very good counterparts to Fui Nienna and Vana. Especially the comparison Inanna=Vana does not work. Inanna/Ishtar was the goddess of love and war, a self-indulgent, petty Goddess of Sex who most likely served as inspiration for Aphrodite.
Vana is life and youth incarnate, and the Goddess of Spring, just as Fui Nienna is the Goddess of Winter ("Heskil who breedeth winter")
I admit that jumping from Vana being the goddess of youth and Fui "breeding winter" to the conclusion that Fui is "a crone" was a bit of interpretation. But it is easy to see Tari-Laisi and Qualme Tari as the incarnations of beginnings (birth, spring, youth, joy) and end (death, winter, old age, despair)
She is metaphorically, if not necessarily literally "the Crone" among the primitive Valar, just as Vana is "the Maiden"

Rather than Hell or Elli I was also thinking of Annis the Celtic crone goddess, I know Celtic mythology was not a primary inspiration of Tolkien, still the crone had by that time become part of our collective well of stories.

Yet, when I posted, “otherwise they are almost the same character”, I overspoke. I ought perhaps to have posted something like, “but even the Nienna of the published Silmarillion is in some of her features still relatable to the Fui Nienna of The Book of Lost Tales.

This is where I find you exaggerating. What does complete opposite mean? Both Fui Nienna and the later Nienna are of the same species. They are Valar. They are of the same gender, female. Both bare the same name. Both are connected with weeping and sorrow. Both are connected with Mandos. They seem to me to not be complete opposites.


Perhaps one ought to ignore species, in which case one my find counterparts among the Ainur in Arda. If one does not ignore gender, then Melkor is arguably the counterpart to Varda, otherwise he is the counterpart to Manwë. But who would be the counterpart to Ulmo, some spirit of the dry dessert? Who would be the counterpart to Oromë? Some non-riding, non-archer, spirit of sloth? Who would be the counterpart of Aulë or Yavanna or Lórien or Estë?

Those are the only things they share; being Valar a female gender, a connection to Mandos (however it is wife vs. sister, very different) and a connection to sorrow (however the exact opposite)

You are splitting hairs with that, a opposite to a female character does not necessarily have to be a male (Fui Nienna and Vana were opposites in the primitive mythology after all)

But Neinna and Fui Nienna are opposites in the way that Fui Nienna causes and creates despair and sorrow, which she then inflicts upon others, is connected to death and has "cold to the Eldar as to all else"

Nienna (from the Silmarillion) however is the mourner who takes it upon herself to grieve over every hurt and every wrong in the world out of the compassion of her heart. She helps others (the spirits of the Elves in Mandos) overcome their sorrow with wise counsel and symbolizes the Christian principle that from suffering can come great wisdom.
She even supports Morgoth's pleas for an appeal (as the only of the Valar) and her tears help bring forth the two trees as well as the sun and the moon.

to sum it up

Fui:

Creates sorrow and despair
Inflicts these emotions on others
Begets winter and death
Is cold to all beings
Robs people of the sanity with her lightless nets of blind grief and hopeless sorrow

Nienna:
Turns sorrow and despair into wisdom
Takes it upon herself to mourn all hurts and evil of the world
Helps to create light from dark, joy from sorrow
Is compassionate towards even Melkor
Imparts wisdom and compassion into all that are willing to learn from her, such as Gandalf

Those are some pretty heavy, irreconcilable differences.

Whereas the similarities

Both female (so are Varda, Galadriel, Lobelia Sackville-Baggings and Ungoliant)
Both are Valar (so are Vana, Orome, Manwe and Ulmo)
Both share a name (so do Vaire the Elf and Vaire the Valie)
Both have a connection to Mandos and his halls (however wife and judge vs. sister and counselor)
Both have a connection to sorrow (however, the exact opposite, inflicter vs. healer)

are more common place or only very superficial.

I don't know how sincere you were with your question about the counterparts of the Valar. In general I think Morgoth would be the counterpart to all Valar in the sense creation/healing/stewardship vs. destruction/corruption/rebellion.