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denethorthefirst · 07-20-2014, 02:41 AM

Hello Jallanite,

thanks for the compliments

Both definitions are a bit extreme, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

"Tolkien also implies that Sam’s telepathic connection to the nearby Orcs is through the power of the Ring which Sam is wearing. When Sam encountered an Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol and grabbed the Ring, Sam appeared to the Orc as a powerful warrior cloaked in shadow holding “some nameless menace of power and doom.” When Gollum first attacks Frodo on Mount Doom, Sam sees Frodo as a vision of “a figure robed in white… [and] it held a wheel of fire.” ... In short the tale and Tolkien’s comments on it show various powers ascribed to the One Ring beyond the compass of your narrow definition."

These two examples are both covered by the narrow definition (enhancement of the ability to dominate other wills.).

Of course Sauron could theoretically dominate the three elven Rings, but he could not do so in practice because the Elves denied him the possibility; so he essentially only dominated the Nine, thats what i meant.

Tolkien clearly states that the Dwarves could not be dominated and that the rings did not work as intended; so i dont know how you come to the conclusion that the Seven Kings were somehow "puppets" during the Second Age? Quite the opposite was the case, the Dwarves fought Sauron and were still counted among the Free People.
And while its true that some Dwarves fought on Saurons side during the War of the Last Alliance, i dont think they fought "under" him (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him for political reasons maybe, or Sauron bought some dwarves as mercenaries (i dont think they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King). The Dwarves of Durin (and maybe other western Clans as well) definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain. So the seven Dwarf Kings were definitely not at Saurons "beck and call"! In fact Sauron did all he could to regain the Seven Rings because they did not work on the Dwarves and he could not dominate them (he only recaptured three of them by the end of the Third Age).

07-20-2014, 02:41 AM	#23
denethorthefirst Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 81	Hello Jallanite, thanks for the compliments Both definitions are a bit extreme, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. "Tolkien also implies that Sam’s telepathic connection to the nearby Orcs is through the power of the Ring which Sam is wearing. When Sam encountered an Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol and grabbed the Ring, Sam appeared to the Orc as a powerful warrior cloaked in shadow holding “some nameless menace of power and doom.” When Gollum first attacks Frodo on Mount Doom, Sam sees Frodo as a vision of “a figure robed in white… [and] it held a wheel of fire.” ... In short the tale and Tolkien’s comments on it show various powers ascribed to the One Ring beyond the compass of your narrow definition." These two examples are both covered by the narrow definition (enhancement of the ability to dominate other wills.). Of course Sauron could theoretically dominate the three elven Rings, but he could not do so in practice because the Elves denied him the possibility; so he essentially only dominated the Nine, thats what i meant. Tolkien clearly states that the Dwarves could not be dominated and that the rings did not work as intended; so i dont know how you come to the conclusion that the Seven Kings were somehow "puppets" during the Second Age? Quite the opposite was the case, the Dwarves fought Sauron and were still counted among the Free People. And while its true that some Dwarves fought on Saurons side during the War of the Last Alliance, i dont think they fought "under" him (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him for political reasons maybe, or Sauron bought some dwarves as mercenaries (i dont think they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King). The Dwarves of Durin (and maybe other western Clans as well) definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain. So the seven Dwarf Kings were definitely not at Saurons "beck and call"! In fact Sauron did all he could to regain the Seven Rings because they did not work on the Dwarves and he could not dominate them (he only recaptured three of them by the end of the Third Age). Last edited by denethorthefirst; 07-20-2014 at 03:44 AM.