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Old 05-23-2014, 09:11 PM   #26
Zigūr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event.
Is this true? Manwė may have been capable of believing that Melkor was rehabilitated, but "Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by." Now in Tulkas' case this may have derived from sheer mistrust, but Ulmo specifically was "not deceived" - but mighty as he was (and he was mighty indeed among the Valar, second only to the Elder King himself among the male Valar) he had to obey the judgement of Manwė "for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."
I actually wanted to talk about Ulmo, because he seems to be quite compassionate, giving advice to Turgon and Tuor. He was also the leader of those Valar who counselled against the Eldar being brought (or rather invited) to Aman - and he definitely had a point there.
Incidentally, Manwė was not blind. As is stated in Morgoth's Ring (and I quoted in a recent thread) he knew that letting the Noldor fight Morgoth would cause Morgoth to waste his power until he was weakened to the point where he could be dealt with in a way that would not risk the destruction of Arda. The Valar did not lack compassion - they actually avoided fighting Melkor because that was the lesser of two evils: wait, and allow Melkor to become manageable, or go to battle, and risk Arda being destroyed and the death of all Eru's children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
they never solved the problem of evil, and how to manifest a creation without embedding their creations, inadvertently, with great vulnerabilities implicit in Arda's reality fabric
But the Valar were not "creators", only "makers" - they had no control over the Flame Imperishable - and since everything in Arda had a Morgoth-element they had no choice but to work within those limits. Also, they could not "solve" the problem of evil for two reasons: 1) because they lacked the power to do so (not because they were too incompetent) and 2) because Eru had already solved it: "Arda Healed," which would arrive in the fullness of time. Professor Tolkien observes that "no created thng or being in Arda, or in all Eä, was powerful enough to counteract or heal Evil: that is to subdue Melkor (in his present person, reduced though that was) and the Evil that he had dissipated and sent out from himself into the very structure of the world. Only Eru himself cold do this."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
I believe Eru placed Melkor into Creation knowing what he was going to do. Nienna, the perpetually weeping Maia who spared no tears for any part of creation, looks to Middle Earth, and she, alone of them all, has sufficient humility to sit with the marring of Arda and grieve for it.
Eru permitted Melkor into creation, but I do not believe he placed him there with the intention of having Melkor commit evil even with the belief that it would bring about good. I believe Eru gave him the choice. He reconciles the evil, but I don't think he intentionally enables it. Regarding Nienna (who is a Vala, by the way, not a Maia) her tears are compassionate yes, but isn't the message of so much of Professor Tolkien's work that we should do what we can against evil without the expectation of managing to completely overcome it? This was of course something the Valar had to learn, and is the attitude embodied in Gandalf, who learned compassion from Nienna.

My point is I think the Evil of Melkor could be, and was, reconciled to Eä in order to improve it, but I don't believe it was part of a necessary dynamism of metaphysical forces, at least not in this dualistic way. Your theories are interesting but I think they're largely precluded by a lot of the content of Morgoth's Ring which I heartily recommend reading in full for a more complete understanding of Professor Tolkien's theodicy (the technical term for answering the problem of evil).
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Last edited by Zigūr; 05-23-2014 at 09:17 PM.
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