Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
There are throught out the history of Elves also other examples beside the one you already mentioned:
We have first of all the Avari refusing to go to Amman.
We have the Silvian Elves and Nandor refusing to cross Anduin and the Misty Mountians.
We have the Sindar refusing to leave Beleriand due to diffrent reasons.
We have the Teleri staying on Tol Eressea for a time.
We have one tithe of the Noldor refusing to follow Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin, staying behind in Tirion.
We have Finarfin leading some of his people back to Valinor.
We have many Feanorians that were repented of the burning at Losgar and ashamed for deed done by Feanor allone and in the night wihle the camp was asleep (okay, they did not rebel).
We have the Noldor refuse to go to war when Fingolfin felt the time ripe.
We have Aredhel rebelling against the law her brother Trugon has set up in Gondolin.
We have the Nargothrondians refusing to follow Finrod, which is indeed an succesfull open rebellion, seting aside the king.
We have the feanorian folowing of Celegrom and Curufin leting them go from Nargothrond alone.
We have Gwindor going to war against the will of Orordreth.
We have the oposition of Gwindor against Turin.
We have the rebellion of Luthien against her father.
We have Maedhros and Maglor standing allone when they try to fetch that Silmarills, because they were deserted by their follwoing.
We have Celebrimbor and the Mirdain seting aside the rule of Galadriel and Celeborn in Eregion.
We have Amdir refusing the overlordship of Gilgalad and lunching an eraly attack on the Morannon.
And even so the list is long don't think it is complete.
Respectfuly
Findegil
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Good Points!
Yes, the Avari and Nandor were awesome like that.
The Sindar however, I see more as staying loyal to Thingol and so feeling compelled to stay, in a way its Olwe and the Falmari that are rebelling by going to Valinor
And with Tol Eressea; who says it wasn't Olwe who said "Well I feel like staying on this island"and everybody agreed with their king like good little Elves.
Yes, Finarfin is one of my favorite characters exactly for that reason :-) But again the dissident here is dependent on the actions of a noble, no agency coming from average Joe Elves here.
Well in the Silmarillion the burning of the ships was rather public, but you are right it is said many did regret.
The part with Fingolfin you mention is indeed a very good example, possibly the best. Kudos!
Ah yes, and Aredhel, but again a Noble, noble Elves seem to have much more freedom in that matter.
The Nargothrondians were just swayed by Celegorm and Curufin here, exchanging one lord for another.
I thought it was just Celebrimbor who stayed, there were others? Cool! So my head canon that Curufin's wife stayed in Nargothrond isn't that far off :-)
Yes I did forget about Gwindior, he was quite the rebel and so was Luthien!
At that time, is it sure that they still had a following? Would their armies not have been dissolved at the order of the Valar?
Celebrimbor only works in the UT account, in the Silmarillion he was the rightful ruler of Eregion.
I was not aware of Amdir doing that, I never liked the Amdir/Amorth element in Lorien's history much and pretty much ignored it, thanks for pointing it out.
In hindsight I should probably have specified that I mainly have that complaint about the Feanorian following. But as you msterfully pointed out there has been quite a bit dissident there too: Amras(in HOME), many of the commoers post Ship burning, Celebrimbor, Curufin's and Celegorm's following in Nargothrond and the heroic, nameless soldiers that fought against their own masters during the Third Kinslaying.
I gladly concede you the point, Findegil, accept that we sadly hear very little about common Elves in general and respectfully withdraw my case. :-)
P.S. This now leads me to the interesting (though unprovable) theory that Maedhros ceding the crown to Figolfin and paying compensation by presenting Fingon with those horses was not merely a chivalrous act on his part, but perhaps the flag Feanor's sons got from their people for burning the ships was getting so critical that he would have risked losing a large chunk of his people to Fingolfin/Finrod or even open rebellion unless he paid penance in some way. And instantly the whole situation looks vastly different. It's really a shame that the Silmarillion doesn't go into much detail like that...