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Galin · 03-24-2014, 08:21 AM

Actually Ivriniel [by edit] I fixed an argument of mine that was flawed, as, given CJRT's rather certain comment [to my mind] about Amroth as Nerwen's son being rejected, I had not remembered that the Amroth idea was also included in those sections that might have been revised 'later' [in other words, not just Celebrimbor].

Which you highlighted and I still didn't pay enough attention to, at first!

Still, I think it less likely that in the same general 'phase' [1968 or later] Tolkien decided that Amroth was the son of Amdir [Malgalad is the other name confusion you were thinking of], but then added him as the son of Galadriel to CG&C. If Hammond and Scull are correct, and CG&C was written in the later 1950s, that gives plenty of years for the Amroth and Celebrimbor revisions -- but anyway what seems compelling to me is that Tolkien 'never' seems to have worked much on this text, and never brought it beyond a rough state.

Of course, if I toss out notable chunks of CG&C, thinking them revised, as you say, what then was the history here? What did Galadriel do in Eregion, and after its fall? I have given my speculations about that somewhere at the Barrow Downs, along with the matter of the Mallorns and Lorien. At the moment I have no idea where they are however, and not that I assume you want to read them anyway.

Another thing I forgot to mention is what was published in RGEO [published in 1967 I think]: again it's far from conclusive in any case, but there Tolkien simply mentions that Galadriel and Celeborn passed over the Blue Mountains and went to Eregion...

... not Evendim, where Amroth was born in CG&C [but not Evendim due to brevity?], and not 'founded' Eregion [but again, is this missing due to brevity?]. But the latter 'detail' of actually founding and ruling the realm seems rather a notable one to leave out, especially with the [to my mind] easy implication of the revised Appendix B that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion.

And now I am being unfair, since I implied we should just agree and move on and then added more argument myself.

This then, is for me, not you Ivriniel:

And you may certainly respond if you wish of course, no matter what I imply and when.

If I can recall some of my speculated history in brief, I think it was a bit vague, and went something like this: Galadriel and Celeborn travel to Eregion -- Celebrimbor is Lord there, and he allows Annatar to play with the Mirdain -- I assume Galadriel objects -- Gil-galad has become a Finarfinian too [another complicated matter], and knew better than to allow Annatar into Lindon, so in this scenario Galadriel does not 'fail' as a ruler of Eregion by comparison, by at least allowing Annatar in her realm.

Then, after the Ring Ruse is discovered, Galadriel either departs to Lindon [with Nenya] before War breaks out [total speculation aside from the fact that she appears to be in Lindon later, acording to one note], or escapes with Celeborn to Lorien after Eregion is devasted [these are both based on notes in UT]. And well, I can't remeber at the moment what I have them doing until the Last Alliance, but as I say I posted it here somewhere...

By the way I'll have no Tel[e]porno of Aman! I know that's a very late idea but for myself I reject it as it contradicts description actually published by Tolkien himself. And thus he 'needs' no Telerin name too!

Here's something else about Amroth: wow now I'm really being annoying

Some think Treebeard's statement [in Quenya] to Galadriel and Celeborn possibly includes Amroth in the plural. I'm no linguist and could easily be wrong here, but about the use of the plural in Treebeard's statement: 'fair ones, begetters of fair ones' I note the Quenya plural marker in vanimálion 'of fair ones'

While I'm not sure all is known about this marker, we do know that Quenya has a dual marker, which might be employed if Treebeard was speaking of two children [theoretically Amroth and Celebrian], but in any case I think he is speaking much more generally here. There are no more Entings for Ents, and having no more children might easily be on Treebeard's mind; and the fair Elves have had 'many' fair children, by comparison anyway.

Also of possible note here, Tolkien analyzed falmalinnar in The Lord of the Rings as falma-li-nnar, in the interlinear translation in RGEO, and appears to have glossed the middle element as 'many'.

And if that's the case it seem a bit odd to me to refer to two children as 'many'. Well again, if.

I'll shaddap now. Maybe. Apologies

03-24-2014, 08:21 AM	#53
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Actually Ivriniel [by edit] I fixed an argument of mine that was flawed, as, given CJRT's rather certain comment [to my mind] about Amroth as Nerwen's son being rejected, I had not remembered that the Amroth idea was also included in those sections that might have been revised 'later' [in other words, not just Celebrimbor]. Which you highlighted and I still didn't pay enough attention to, at first! Still, I think it less likely that in the same general 'phase' [1968 or later] Tolkien decided that Amroth was the son of Amdir [Malgalad is the other name confusion you were thinking of], but then added him as the son of Galadriel to CG&C. If Hammond and Scull are correct, and CG&C was written in the later 1950s, that gives plenty of years for the Amroth and Celebrimbor revisions -- but anyway what seems compelling to me is that Tolkien 'never' seems to have worked much on this text, and never brought it beyond a rough state. Of course, if I toss out notable chunks of CG&C, thinking them revised, as you say, what then was the history here? What did Galadriel do in Eregion, and after its fall? I have given my speculations about that somewhere at the Barrow Downs, along with the matter of the Mallorns and Lorien. At the moment I have no idea where they are however, and not that I assume you want to read them anyway. Another thing I forgot to mention is what was published in RGEO [published in 1967 I think]: again it's far from conclusive in any case, but there Tolkien simply mentions that Galadriel and Celeborn passed over the Blue Mountains and went to Eregion... ... not Evendim, where Amroth was born in CG&C [but not Evendim due to brevity?], and not 'founded' Eregion [but again, is this missing due to brevity?]. But the latter 'detail' of actually founding and ruling the realm seems rather a notable one to leave out, especially with the [to my mind] easy implication of the revised Appendix B that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion. And now I am being unfair, since I implied we should just agree and move on and then added more argument myself. This then, is for me, not you Ivriniel: And you may certainly respond if you wish of course, no matter what I imply and when. If I can recall some of my speculated history in brief, I think it was a bit vague, and went something like this: Galadriel and Celeborn travel to Eregion -- Celebrimbor is Lord there, and he allows Annatar to play with the Mirdain -- I assume Galadriel objects -- Gil-galad has become a Finarfinian too [another complicated matter], and knew better than to allow Annatar into Lindon, so in this scenario Galadriel does not 'fail' as a ruler of Eregion by comparison, by at least allowing Annatar in her realm. Then, after the Ring Ruse is discovered, Galadriel either departs to Lindon [with Nenya] before War breaks out [total speculation aside from the fact that she appears to be in Lindon later, acording to one note], or escapes with Celeborn to Lorien after Eregion is devasted [these are both based on notes in UT]. And well, I can't remeber at the moment what I have them doing until the Last Alliance, but as I say I posted it here somewhere... By the way I'll have no Tel[e]porno of Aman! I know that's a very late idea but for myself I reject it as it contradicts description actually published by Tolkien himself. And thus he 'needs' no Telerin name too! Here's something else about Amroth: wow now I'm really being annoying Some think Treebeard's statement [in Quenya] to Galadriel and Celeborn possibly includes Amroth in the plural. I'm no linguist and could easily be wrong here, but about the use of the plural in Treebeard's statement: 'fair ones, begetters of fair ones' I note the Quenya plural marker in vanimálion 'of fair ones' While I'm not sure all is known about this marker, we do know that Quenya has a dual marker, which might be employed if Treebeard was speaking of two children [theoretically Amroth and Celebrian], but in any case I think he is speaking much more generally here. There are no more Entings for Ents, and having no more children might easily be on Treebeard's mind; and the fair Elves have had 'many' fair children, by comparison anyway. Also of possible note here, Tolkien analyzed falmalinnar in The Lord of the Rings as falma-li-nnar, in the interlinear translation in RGEO, and appears to have glossed the middle element as 'many'. And if that's the case it seem a bit odd to me to refer to two children as 'many'. Well again, if. I'll shaddap now. Maybe. Apologies Last edited by Galin; 03-24-2014 at 08:45 AM.