The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Do most fantasy novel nowadays have traceable elements of Tolkienism in them?

jallanite · 06-14-2013, 06:44 PM

But can you always spot Tolkien influence?

Many fantasy stories written before The Lord of the Rings or even before The Hobbit might also seem to be influenced by Tolkien if you did not know when they were written.

For example, there is Lord Dunsany’s The King of Elfland's Daughter or William Morris’ A Tale of the House of the Wolfings and All the Kindreds of the Mark which in different ways may seem Tolkienish, but any influence in these books might have inspired Tolkien, not the reverse.

There is Hope Mirrlees’ magnificent Lud-in-the-Mist, which fantasy writer Neil Gaiman calls one of his top ten books. See http://www.goodreads.com/genres/neil-gaiman-top-ten .

And there are influences on Tolkien of various passages in past fantasy stories which on the whole are not very Tolkienish. For example George MacDonald’s Lilith, at the beginning of chapter 39, describes dreams in a house in which the protagonist and his friend take refuge, dreams which are almost identical to the dreams that the hobbits have in the House of Tom Bombadil:

Their night was a troubled one, and they brought a strange report of it into the day. Whether the fear of their sleep came out into their waking, or their waking fear sank with them into their dreams, awake or asleep they were never at rest from it. All night something seemed going on in the house—something silent, something terrible, something they were not to know. Never a sound awoke; the darkness was one with the silence, and the silence was the terror

Once, a frightful wind filled the house, and shook its inside, they said, so that it quivered and trembled like a horse shaking himself; but it was a silent wind that made not even a moan in their chamber, and passed away like a soundless sob.

They fell asleep. But they woke again with a great start. They thought the house was filling with water such as they had been drinking. It came from below, and swelled up until the garret was full of it to the very roof. But it made no more sound than the wind, and when it sank away, they fell asleep dry and warm.

And George MacDonald’s novel Phantastes has an evil sentient Ash much like Tolkien’s Old Man Willow, who is sleepy in the day time but comes fully awake at night. And there are other speaking trees as well in that book.

There are also hundreds of old fantasy tales which are now mostly unread, and mostly justly so, and the same for relatively new fantasy tales.

I point to Nerwen’s note that Moorcock started writing about Elric before The Silmarillion was published. What may seem Tolkienish may indeed just be coincidence or a case of two writers being influenced by some of the same previous writers.

Tolkien, for example, was very influenced by the writings of Rider Haggard, but his atmosphere and style is very different, though again and again the same motifs occur.

As Galadriel55 indicates, there is much fantasy published that is not very Tolkienesque but it is for the reader to seek it out.

06-14-2013, 06:44 PM	#26
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	But can you always spot Tolkien influence? Many fantasy stories written before The Lord of the Rings or even before The Hobbit might also seem to be influenced by Tolkien if you did not know when they were written. For example, there is Lord Dunsany’s The King of Elfland's Daughter or William Morris’ A Tale of the House of the Wolfings and All the Kindreds of the Mark which in different ways may seem Tolkienish, but any influence in these books might have inspired Tolkien, not the reverse. There is Hope Mirrlees’ magnificent Lud-in-the-Mist, which fantasy writer Neil Gaiman calls one of his top ten books. See http://www.goodreads.com/genres/neil-gaiman-top-ten . And there are influences on Tolkien of various passages in past fantasy stories which on the whole are not very Tolkienish. For example George MacDonald’s Lilith, at the beginning of chapter 39, describes dreams in a house in which the protagonist and his friend take refuge, dreams which are almost identical to the dreams that the hobbits have in the House of Tom Bombadil: Their night was a troubled one, and they brought a strange report of it into the day. Whether the fear of their sleep came out into their waking, or their waking fear sank with them into their dreams, awake or asleep they were never at rest from it. All night something seemed going on in the house—something silent, something terrible, something they were not to know. Never a sound awoke; the darkness was one with the silence, and the silence was the terror Once, a frightful wind filled the house, and shook its inside, they said, so that it quivered and trembled like a horse shaking himself; but it was a silent wind that made not even a moan in their chamber, and passed away like a soundless sob. They fell asleep. But they woke again with a great start. They thought the house was filling with water such as they had been drinking. It came from below, and swelled up until the garret was full of it to the very roof. But it made no more sound than the wind, and when it sank away, they fell asleep dry and warm. And George MacDonald’s novel Phantastes has an evil sentient Ash much like Tolkien’s Old Man Willow, who is sleepy in the day time but comes fully awake at night. And there are other speaking trees as well in that book. There are also hundreds of old fantasy tales which are now mostly unread, and mostly justly so, and the same for relatively new fantasy tales. I point to Nerwen’s note that Moorcock started writing about Elric before The Silmarillion was published. What may seem Tolkienish may indeed just be coincidence or a case of two writers being influenced by some of the same previous writers. Tolkien, for example, was very influenced by the writings of Rider Haggard, but his atmosphere and style is very different, though again and again the same motifs occur. As Galadriel55 indicates, there is much fantasy published that is not very Tolkienesque but it is for the reader to seek it out.