Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
Galin is right that I based the assumption about marriage of first cousin on The History of Middle-Earth; volume X: Morgoth's Ring; part three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; chapter II: The second Phase; sub-chapter: Laws and Customs among the Eldar. The context is a comment of the Eldar to revelation of the Valar that as children reborn Elves would take up their fromer marriages in the second life. This fact would restrict the family for the reborn child. After commenting that what the Valar said would mean that the reborn would not be a near kin of his former spouse, the text goes on with the passage I would like to give here more fully:It is right that Maeglin is the later text, and the passage as it is given in The Silmarillion; part three: Quenta Silamrillion; chapter 16: Of Maeglin was acording to The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter III: Maeglin unchanged: Here the laws are not elaborated in such detail as before. The stated fact is simply that Idril and Maeglin are to near akin to marriage each other. Taking the laws given before strictly that would indicat that Idril and Maeglin would have to be 'half-brother' and 'half-sister' meaning that Eol and Elenwe would have been brother and sister, which is of course unfeasable. But the text in Of Maeglin does provide a relativation: This does for me indicat that the supposed Middle-Earth internal writter of the text might not be as sure of the laws among the Eldar as he has suggested in the sentence before. And the description of how Idril looked at Maeglins desire for her does fit very well with the statment in Laws and Customs:
As I sayed beofre, I am a combiner.
|
I hope you don't take offense to this, but my philosophy is the opposite of yours, so disagree with what you wrote, though I respect your argument.
Tolkien ultimately rejected the idea of Elves being reborn in their offspring and settled on Manwe creating a new body for them. This renders a lot of the argument there against marriage being first cousins pointless.
Then in the Silmarill we have this
For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to.
This is quite strong language. If Galadriel had married her first cousin then why would he have no hope? The writer would be aware that Galadriel had married Celeborn, but he is still adamant that this feeling had never occurred before.
However, the paragraph goes on to describe this as a crooked thing and the work of the kinslaying. This hardly suggest it was accepted.
And however this might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since deemed it: an evil fruit of the kinslaying
I don't think the two can be combined. We have to reject one. To me the Eldar not marrying cousins is vital to the story of Maeglin and Idril. There are no other examples of the Eldar marrying cousins and so will stick with the Eldar forbidding such close relations.
Quote:
|
Posted by Cellurdur:Well, first we have Celeborn as the son of Malgalad/Amdír and as brother of Amroth. Then we have Celeborn as the son of Galadon. You can chose or you can combine. If you chose that Celeborn the son of Galadon, he is no longer the brother Amroth and Amdír will be possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan. If you chose Celeborn to be the son of Amdír, he is himself possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan, which is gainsiad some were in the Apendizes to LotR. If you combine Galadon becomes another name for Malgalad/Amdír.
|
As I said before I am against combining things. Amroth was also at one point the son of Celeborn. For me some older versions have to be rejected outright.
Celeborn was rejected a long time ago and nothing suggest they were again.
I don't see the need to place Amroth or even Oropher so closely to the line of Thingol or Olwe. There were other Sindar princes not as closely related. In fact I would say if anyone was to be part of the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo line it would be Thranduil. He tries to emulate Doriath and has a strong dislike for dwarves all stemming from the first fall of Doriath.
Celeborn is held in higher esteem and regard than the either Thranduil or Amroth. Celeborn is part of the White Council whilst it can be seen that the other two are not.
Quote:
About Nimloth escape from the sack of Doriath: This is found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V: The Tale of Years:The wife of Dior has as many names as has the father of Celeborn! Here she is called Lindis, earlier she was named Elulin and later Nimloth. (See the year 497 in The Tale of Years and the comments of Christopher Tolkien for a full account of her names.)
Respectfully
Findegil
P.S.: I am not adamant on my interpretations reached by combination, but at least it is worth seeing if such combining comes to a 'no go' or not. I will have to reread RGEO to refresh what it has to say about Galadriel and the rebellion of the Noldor.
|
The problem with this is that in the later version she outright disappears. At best she would survive the sakc of Doriath only to die in the assault on Sirion. It is inexplainable how she is not mentioned in account of her grandsons; Elrond and Elros. Would she be so quick to abandon them after losing her own sons? Things are less complicated if she dies in Doriath and Elwing is the sole survivor of the family.