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Findegil · 01-28-2013, 05:52 AM

Yes, this is a difficult chapter. I think Cellurdur’s recollection of the earlier story put very simple. In my opinion the story of Galadriel and Celeborn was very fluent and changed bit by bit. But as Cellurdur I am always searching for the 'truth' behind the many versions. In my case I am a combiner, that means I would only skip information when it is clearly gainsaid by statement in a source of higher relevance (however one does define this relevance). Based on this for me the story of Galadriel and Celeborn runs thus:
Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin. Since it is said that Celeborn was the son of Galadon son of Elmo and the grandson of Olwe brother of Elmo, we know that the wife’s of Olwe and Elmo must have been not akin and that the wife of Galadon was the daughter of Olwe.
The mother Galadriel, Earwen, was also a daughter of Olwe. Therefore for the marriage to possible Galadriels father, Finarfin, and Celeborns father, Amdir, must be not akin at all. This is true, as far as we know.
So both marriages of first cousins in this line are possible.
If Celeborn is now to be sailing back from Valinor with Galadriel, this means that Olwe and Elmo had their children very early and that Celeborn was a good deal older then Galadriel. Since we know that Elmo and Galadon stayed in Beleriand when Olwe sailed west, Celeborn must have been born in Beleriand before the depature of the Teleri and sailed with his grandfather Olwe while his parents stayed in Beleriand.
More complex becomes the situation by the fact that we have in addition to Celeborn further children of Galadon and further names for him. For me Galadon, Malgalad and Amdír are different names for the same person. Thus also Galathil and Amroth become one and same person, while Nimloth must be a daughter of Galadon/Malgald/Amdír and a sister (not a nice) of Celeborn.

Story line:

Valian Year 1105: Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe return from Valinor and lead the Quendi leave Cuivienen.
VY 1115: Vanyar and Noldor reach Falas and the Noldor settle down in Neldoreth.
VY 1128: The Teleri come over the Ered Luin and settle in Thargelion.
VY 1130: Elwe is lost in Nan Elmoth.
VY 1132: Vanyar and Noldor leave Beleriand for Valinor. Most of the Teleri settle at the mouth of Sirion and take Olwe as king.
VY 1135: About this time Olwe's first daughter and Elmos son Galadon/Malgalad/Amdír must have been born in Beleriand.
VY 1140: About this time Amdír takes Olwe's daughter as wife.
VY 1141: About this time Galathil/Amroth is born.
VY 1146: About this time Celeborn is born.
VY 1149: Ulmo comes back to Beleriand.
VY 1150: The Teleri leave Beleriand. Olwe and his grandson Celeborn are transported on Tol Eressea. Elmo, Amdír, his wife and Amroth stay behind in search of Elwe.
VY 1151: The voyage of the Teleri is brought to a halt in sight of Valinor and they stay on Tol Eressea.
VY 1152: Elwe and Melian come out of Nan Elmoth and build Doriath. Elmo, Amdír and Amroth are with them.
VY 1161: The Teleri came at least to Valinor and settle at the coast of Eldamar.
VY 1230: Finarfin are born in Valinor.
VY 1280: Finarfin marriages Earwen daughter of Olwe.
VY 1380: about this time Galadriel is born.
VY 1492: About this time Galadriel goes to Aqualonde and meets Celeborn. Both plan to sail back to Middle-Earth.
VY 1495: First Kinslaying at Aqualonde. Galadriel and Celeborn fight against the Noldor and rescue their ship.
VY 1496: Galadriel and Celeborn leave Valinor without permission and thus come under the ban.
VY 1497: The First Battle in Beleriand. Galadriel and Celeborn reach Birthombar. Amdír leaves with Amroth and Nimloth Doriath and goes to Ossiriand.

20 First Age: Mereth Aderthad. Probably about this time Galadriel goes with her brother Finrod to Tol Sirion, while Celeborn joins his family in Ossiriand.
52 FA: Galadriel and Finrod visit Menegroth and Galadriel stays there.
102 FA: Nargothrond is build and Galadriel stays there for a time. When she returns to Doriath she meets there again Celeborn.
472 FA: Galadriel leaves Beleriand and settles down at Nenuial. Celeborn possibly goes back to Ossiriand.
497 FA: Dior marriages Nimloth.
503 FA: Thingol is slain and Doriath falls for the first time.
504 FA: Dior and Nimloth go to Doriath. Celeborn is probably with them.
507 FA: Downfall of Doriath, Dior is slain. Nimloth and her Daugther Elwing fly back to Ossiriand with the help of Celeborn.
510 FA: Fall of Gondolin. Nimloth hear about Tour’s folk heading to the mouth of Sirion and goes their herself with Elwing and a small following of survivors from Doriath. They reach the havens before Tuor.
545 FA - 587 FA: War of Wrath: Beleriand is destroyed and starts to sink. The Elves retreat to Ossirand (South-Lindon) and Thargelion (North-Lindon). Amdír, Amroth and Celeborn cross Ered-Luin and go east. Celeborn joins Galadriel at Nenuial and they become Lord and Lady of Eriador.

1 Second Age: Amdír and Amroth come to Lórien and develop there a realm of the wood-elves.
700 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Eregion and build a realm of Noldor-Elves.
750 SA: Ost-in-Edhil is build.
884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathló and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel.
1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lórien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lórien.
1200 SA: Sauron comes to Eregion.
1350 - 1400 SA: Celebrimbor makes himself lord of Eregion. Celeborn stays in Eregion but Galadriel goes to Lorien.
1693 SA: The War of Sauron against Eregion begins. Celebrimbor visits Lorien and gives Galadriel Nenya.
1697 SA: Celeborn makes a sortie and is able to joins Elrond, who has come from Lindon to help in the fight against Sauron. Sauron takes Eregion and slays Celebrimbor. When Sauron attacks Elrond and Celeborn, Galadriel with Elves from Lorien and Durin III. with Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron from behind. Elrond and Celeborn retreat to the north and build Imladris, while the gates of Moria are closed before Sauron approach.
1750 SA: About this time comes Galadriel to Imladris and meets Celeborn. Celebrian is with her and Elrond falls in love with her. Galadriel and Celebron go to Lorien and fortify it against Sauron trying to cross Anduin again.
1800 SA: About this time Galadriel and Celebrian leave Lorien and go to South-Lindon. Celeborn follows later on.
2400 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn visit Lorien again but go then to Imladris. Only short time later they move agian. Together with Celebrian they go to the mouth of Gwathlo and dwell at the place later known as Dol Amroth. Celeborns Neff Amroth does visit them at times and some Elves from Lorien stay with them.
3433 SA: In the Battle of Dargorlad Amdír is slain.

1 Third Age: Amdír son Amroth comes back to Lorien and becomes Lord of Lorien.
109 TA: Elrond marriages Celebrian.
1000 TA: About this time Galadriel and Celeborn come again to Lorien. Galadriel makes long journeys through Rhovanion from the borders of Gondor to the realm of Thranduil in the North-East of Mirkwood.
1100 TA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris.
1981 TA: Nain I. slain, the Dwarves leave Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost. Galadriel and Celeborn come to Lorien and become Lord and Lady of Lorien.
2509 TA: Celebrian is attacked on Redhorn-pass.
2510 TA: Celebrian laves Middle-Earth.
3019 TA: 3 attacks on Lorien are repelled. After the fall of Barad-dûr Celeborn crosses Anduin and destroys with the help of Galadriel Dol Guldur. Celeborn makes the south of Mirkwood a part of his realm. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond journey to Minas Tirith for the marriage of Arwen and Elessar.
3021 TA: Galadriel and Elrond leave Middle-Earth.

30 Fourth Age: About this time Celeborn leaves Lorien and goes to Imladris.
61 FA: About this time Celeborn and his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir leave Middle-Earth.

Many of the dates are speculative as is of course the complete compilation of events.

Respectfully
Findegil

01-28-2013, 05:52 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Yes, this is a difficult chapter. I think Cellurdur’s recollection of the earlier story put very simple. In my opinion the story of Galadriel and Celeborn was very fluent and changed bit by bit. But as Cellurdur I am always searching for the 'truth' behind the many versions. In my case I am a combiner, that means I would only skip information when it is clearly gainsaid by statement in a source of higher relevance (however one does define this relevance). Based on this for me the story of Galadriel and Celeborn runs thus: Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin. Since it is said that Celeborn was the son of Galadon son of Elmo and the grandson of Olwe brother of Elmo, we know that the wife’s of Olwe and Elmo must have been not akin and that the wife of Galadon was the daughter of Olwe. The mother Galadriel, Earwen, was also a daughter of Olwe. Therefore for the marriage to possible Galadriels father, Finarfin, and Celeborns father, Amdir, must be not akin at all. This is true, as far as we know. So both marriages of first cousins in this line are possible. If Celeborn is now to be sailing back from Valinor with Galadriel, this means that Olwe and Elmo had their children very early and that Celeborn was a good deal older then Galadriel. Since we know that Elmo and Galadon stayed in Beleriand when Olwe sailed west, Celeborn must have been born in Beleriand before the depature of the Teleri and sailed with his grandfather Olwe while his parents stayed in Beleriand. More complex becomes the situation by the fact that we have in addition to Celeborn further children of Galadon and further names for him. For me Galadon, Malgalad and Amdír are different names for the same person. Thus also Galathil and Amroth become one and same person, while Nimloth must be a daughter of Galadon/Malgald/Amdír and a sister (not a nice) of Celeborn. Story line: Valian Year 1105: Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe return from Valinor and lead the Quendi leave Cuivienen. VY 1115: Vanyar and Noldor reach Falas and the Noldor settle down in Neldoreth. VY 1128: The Teleri come over the Ered Luin and settle in Thargelion. VY 1130: Elwe is lost in Nan Elmoth. VY 1132: Vanyar and Noldor leave Beleriand for Valinor. Most of the Teleri settle at the mouth of Sirion and take Olwe as king. VY 1135: About this time Olwe's first daughter and Elmos son Galadon/Malgalad/Amdír must have been born in Beleriand. VY 1140: About this time Amdír takes Olwe's daughter as wife. VY 1141: About this time Galathil/Amroth is born. VY 1146: About this time Celeborn is born. VY 1149: Ulmo comes back to Beleriand. VY 1150: The Teleri leave Beleriand. Olwe and his grandson Celeborn are transported on Tol Eressea. Elmo, Amdír, his wife and Amroth stay behind in search of Elwe. VY 1151: The voyage of the Teleri is brought to a halt in sight of Valinor and they stay on Tol Eressea. VY 1152: Elwe and Melian come out of Nan Elmoth and build Doriath. Elmo, Amdír and Amroth are with them. VY 1161: The Teleri came at least to Valinor and settle at the coast of Eldamar. VY 1230: Finarfin are born in Valinor. VY 1280: Finarfin marriages Earwen daughter of Olwe. VY 1380: about this time Galadriel is born. VY 1492: About this time Galadriel goes to Aqualonde and meets Celeborn. Both plan to sail back to Middle-Earth. VY 1495: First Kinslaying at Aqualonde. Galadriel and Celeborn fight against the Noldor and rescue their ship. VY 1496: Galadriel and Celeborn leave Valinor without permission and thus come under the ban. VY 1497: The First Battle in Beleriand. Galadriel and Celeborn reach Birthombar. Amdír leaves with Amroth and Nimloth Doriath and goes to Ossiriand. 20 First Age: Mereth Aderthad. Probably about this time Galadriel goes with her brother Finrod to Tol Sirion, while Celeborn joins his family in Ossiriand. 52 FA: Galadriel and Finrod visit Menegroth and Galadriel stays there. 102 FA: Nargothrond is build and Galadriel stays there for a time. When she returns to Doriath she meets there again Celeborn. 472 FA: Galadriel leaves Beleriand and settles down at Nenuial. Celeborn possibly goes back to Ossiriand. 497 FA: Dior marriages Nimloth. 503 FA: Thingol is slain and Doriath falls for the first time. 504 FA: Dior and Nimloth go to Doriath. Celeborn is probably with them. 507 FA: Downfall of Doriath, Dior is slain. Nimloth and her Daugther Elwing fly back to Ossiriand with the help of Celeborn. 510 FA: Fall of Gondolin. Nimloth hear about Tour’s folk heading to the mouth of Sirion and goes their herself with Elwing and a small following of survivors from Doriath. They reach the havens before Tuor. 545 FA - 587 FA: War of Wrath: Beleriand is destroyed and starts to sink. The Elves retreat to Ossirand (South-Lindon) and Thargelion (North-Lindon). Amdír, Amroth and Celeborn cross Ered-Luin and go east. Celeborn joins Galadriel at Nenuial and they become Lord and Lady of Eriador. 1 Second Age: Amdír and Amroth come to Lórien and develop there a realm of the wood-elves. 700 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Eregion and build a realm of Noldor-Elves. 750 SA: Ost-in-Edhil is build. 884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathló and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel. 1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lórien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lórien. 1200 SA: Sauron comes to Eregion. 1350 - 1400 SA: Celebrimbor makes himself lord of Eregion. Celeborn stays in Eregion but Galadriel goes to Lorien. 1693 SA: The War of Sauron against Eregion begins. Celebrimbor visits Lorien and gives Galadriel Nenya. 1697 SA: Celeborn makes a sortie and is able to joins Elrond, who has come from Lindon to help in the fight against Sauron. Sauron takes Eregion and slays Celebrimbor. When Sauron attacks Elrond and Celeborn, Galadriel with Elves from Lorien and Durin III. with Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron from behind. Elrond and Celeborn retreat to the north and build Imladris, while the gates of Moria are closed before Sauron approach. 1750 SA: About this time comes Galadriel to Imladris and meets Celeborn. Celebrian is with her and Elrond falls in love with her. Galadriel and Celebron go to Lorien and fortify it against Sauron trying to cross Anduin again. 1800 SA: About this time Galadriel and Celebrian leave Lorien and go to South-Lindon. Celeborn follows later on. 2400 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn visit Lorien again but go then to Imladris. Only short time later they move agian. Together with Celebrian they go to the mouth of Gwathlo and dwell at the place later known as Dol Amroth. Celeborns Neff Amroth does visit them at times and some Elves from Lorien stay with them. 3433 SA: In the Battle of Dargorlad Amdír is slain. 1 Third Age: Amdír son Amroth comes back to Lorien and becomes Lord of Lorien. 109 TA: Elrond marriages Celebrian. 1000 TA: About this time Galadriel and Celeborn come again to Lorien. Galadriel makes long journeys through Rhovanion from the borders of Gondor to the realm of Thranduil in the North-East of Mirkwood. 1100 TA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris. 1981 TA: Nain I. slain, the Dwarves leave Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost. Galadriel and Celeborn come to Lorien and become Lord and Lady of Lorien. 2509 TA: Celebrian is attacked on Redhorn-pass. 2510 TA: Celebrian laves Middle-Earth. 3019 TA: 3 attacks on Lorien are repelled. After the fall of Barad-dûr Celeborn crosses Anduin and destroys with the help of Galadriel Dol Guldur. Celeborn makes the south of Mirkwood a part of his realm. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond journey to Minas Tirith for the marriage of Arwen and Elessar. 3021 TA: Galadriel and Elrond leave Middle-Earth. 30 Fourth Age: About this time Celeborn leaves Lorien and goes to Imladris. 61 FA: About this time Celeborn and his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir leave Middle-Earth. Many of the dates are speculative as is of course the complete compilation of events. Respectfully Findegil