[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Assert away at thing I don’t disagree with. But if you make up, as you did, things that involve understanding my own mind being changed, then expect the same nonsense back,

I really have no idea what you are talking about and quite frankly I don't care. In future perhaps you should show a bit less hubris in your replies. I am only bothered to reply to this post so others can see the information.

All societies in Tolkien’s Middle-earth of which Tolkien tells us are sexist societies, with male genealogies of the royal houses. Númenor is probably the least so, but even there according to the New Law of Succession, if princesses refused to accept the throne, then the throne would be bestowed on the next male heir.

Most societies in Middle Earth existed in times of war and the leader needed military experience as well. It is normal that males would be chosen for the role and nothing sexist about it.

As to medieval European lands, do you deny that female succession in areas where straightforward succession by lineage dominated was very rare? Do you deny that male succession was the norm? I think not.

How does male succession in a time of war make you sexist? It was a brutal time and even when males were poor heirs were poor military, they quickly lost their throne. Though even looking at history shows us that family lines were traced through the most prominent person.

Nobody traces Prince Charles family line through Prince Philip. Even in the case of Prince Albert, who was a brilliant man, his children and descendants are only ever traced to his wife: Queen Victoria.

Never denied it. Never. Though I can’t help pointing out that most married women are foremothers of their descendants. That alone is not a great achievement

Most married women are not called blessed foremother and they certainly are not singled out of all other ancestresses.

I have had not reason to mention “the Children of Lúthien” in this post. But either did you, before the last post. So blame yourself also if there is any blame. What else am I to be falsely blamed for not mentioning and so seeming to ignore?

Your accusation that I was purposely avoiding “the Children of Lúthien” was a false accusation. Please apologize. I do respect in Tolkien’s work the high value he attributes to “the Children of Lúthien”.

You should be less arrogant, especially when you so often wrong. Though you have failed to address the issue at hand.

I notice you carefully don’t point out where my parsing of Tolkien’s sentence was wrong or that Tolkien uses the phrase “kind of beauty”. I still see my parsing as correct, confirmed by your inability to to even being to demonstrate what is wrong with it.

I pointed out how Christopher Tolkien interpreted the text. The man, who knew his father and knows the Legendarium better than anyone else. It is thanks to him in more ways that one we even have these books.

That apart the Beorians were a minority, but not rare in Numenor. An area roughly a sixth of the size Numenor was populated by them. This is even before we take into account the Marachians with dark hair or intermarriage between the groups. The people of Gondor seem to in the most part have grey eyes. In his later writings Tolkien suggest that the Beorians were usually brown. So the dark hair would not be something seldom seen in Numenor. 90% of Britain is white, but would not describe an ethnic person as something, which was seldom seen.

You draw the comparison, not Tolkien’s words. I don’t find your skimming over my parsing as an acceptable comment, unless you are intending to indicate that you can’t contradict my comments. What is wrong with my comments? Of course I see that you can’t find anything wrong with them and are stuck on the wrong side of an argument. So just admit you are wrong.


The footnote is an addition by Christopher Tolkien and I don’t see any connection made by Christopher Tolkien between Morwen and the “kind of beauty” that his father mentions. Christopher Tolkien does not even mention in the note that Morwen was famed for beauty. Christopher Tolkien does mention the hair and eyes of the House of Bëor. It is implied strongly by Tolkien that this hair and eye-colour was common to many of the House of Bëor. Christopher Tolkien quite naturally includes the information on Morwen from a previously unprinted table by his father.

Christopher Tolkien is not writing about what his father meant by “a kind of beauty” so far as I can see.

Then perhaps you should read further into the text. Where Erendis' beauty is once again brought up and there is a direct comparison to Morwen again. At this juncture Christopher Tolkien once more points to his original footnote where he traces her ancestry.

Considering Erendis was said to be more beautify than the Elves of Tol Eressea by some, then we begin to see why her beauty was seldom seen.

'and many of the Eldar high and fair were seated among men at the tables. But the people of Andunie, looking upon the blissful company. said that none were more fair than Erendis, and they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen Eledhwen of old,'-Unfinished Tales

No it can’t, unless you choose to ignore what Tolkien wrote, especially the words “a kind of beauty”.

Yes Christopher Tolkien and the Professor later expand on what is meant. Her beauty was comparable to that of the High elves.

I see no implication of any kind in this argument from silence. You ought to know better than to claim that an argument from silence can prove anything.

Do you now believe that most Númenórians weren’t blond? That seems to me to be very wrong, even from what is written in The Silmarillion, especially in light of your first post.

You ought to read the story before commenting. The full quote notes Aldarion had hair similar to his mother. Tolkien uses similar language about Turin and it indicates the father had a different hair colour.

'Aladarion...vigorous in mind and body, golden haired as his mother'

I do believe the majority of Numenoreans were blond, but not the majority of the nobility, at least not at in the earlier years. Elros was most likely dark haired like Elrond.

I never claimed it did. But in fact this prophecy is given of Lúthien. But erhaps what the books say is what matters and I will keep to that. I can equally put back on you that even if the prophecy was given about Lúthien it still does not change such application as it has to the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing.

Actually since Dior had two other sons it actually does change the application to Earendil and Elwing, since Luthien's line would not necessarily end with the death of Elwing.

Nothing about Haleth. I never mentioned her and neither did you.

It seems sometimes you forget what you wrote. You previously said that Tolkien had not written about any matriarchs except Smeagol's grandmother and I reminded you about Haleth.

A clear example of a woman being regarded as head of the family line. In Haleth's case it is even more remarkable since she was not actually a direct ancestress of the ruling family.

Prove this. The acts are that in a single statement Elrond didn’t happen to mention Turgon, but only Eärendil among his ancestors. But one statement is not enough to prove anything, especially what you want to prove. There is not sufficient data.

Hence, I doubt.

To accuse someone of dishonesty is not very polite thing to do, even more so when I had said I did not have my books with me.

'it was Elros who voyaged over sea to Numenor following the star of Earendil; whereas Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King Elwe.
footnote reads
And also that of Turgon, though he preferred that of Elwe.-The Peoples of Middle Earth

Neither sentence states that Lúthien is “held first” genealogically or “head of the line″. There are two separate lines and Lúthien is not related to the kin of Turgon except through a descendant, Elwing. Lúthien is the most renowned of the Elves which I knew well from these and other passages previously. What you have provided is what I already know plus some incorrect statements by yourself that have no value.

Hence, I doubt. Because your claim does not stand up.

How do you expect to maintain your claim on obviously false statements?

The statement could not be more clear. Since she Luthien was regarded as the noblest, she is named first. What more could you wish for?

Further oddities in these sentences which merely note in passing: The second sentence mentions Ingwë and Finwë who are only connected to the Half-elven through Eärendil grandson of Turgon (descended from Finwë) by Elenwë of the Vanyar who I suppose might be some kindred of Ingwë, though that is dubious. Olwë’s relation to the Half-elven is also claimed but no relationship is given, except through Thingol. Perhaps that is what Tolkien meant in this second case.

I suggest you look at the quote again. It is that it is talking about Aragorn and Arwen's descendants, who would be be descendants of Olwe, through Galadriel.

As for the case of Ingwe, Christopher Tolkien admits that it was odd that his father made such a statement and wonders what he meant. The descendants of Aragorn and Arwen would be connected to Finwe by through Finarfin and Fingolfin. Further more they would be related, but not directly descended from Ingwe since Indis was close kin of Ingwe (either sister or niece.)

It doesn’t surprise me at all. Why should this surprise me? The patriarchal lineage of the line of Núnenor runs directly up to Elros, son of Eärendil, son of Tuor. There is nothing surprising in the Kings of Númenor honouring the father and grandfather of their line of kings. Nothing at all. Especially considering Eärendil’s fame.

Then why not Tuor instead of Earendil? Or even Huor? Both of them accomplished great deeds as well. Why does Elrond not follow suit?

It only surprises you because you imagine that the Kings of Númenor spectacularly don’t honour Lúthien. But you can imagine anything you want though you ought not to make claims that you spectacularly can’t support.

I am sure the kings of Numenor DID greatly honour Luthien, but they placed Earendil first and foremost, which is surprising since no one else of her line placed her second. Elrond himself does not.

Tolkien writes very little about the rites and entertainments of Númenor and so anyone can produce anything they want in fan fiction. I see you are pushing more than I know. Naturally I doubt. And arguments that don’t support you don’t help your case.

Actually Tolkien wrote a lot more than you think about Numenor, but never rewrote them. In some of his earlier writings such as the Fall of Numenor, it really stands out how the Numenorean kings held Earendil in the highest respect.

Yes Lúthien was very famed for helping to steal the Silmaril from Morgoth and rescuing her husband and herself from death. I don’t deny any of this and I never have. I do deny that one statement from Elrond and two from Kings of Númenor are sufficient to draw any firm conclusions. So I continue to doubt.

I provided you with three different statements from three different kings in addition with statements from the people about the role of Earendil. I could provide more from old material too.

As for the case of Elrond I have once again provided more than one quote. In the future if you were less arrogant and accepted that no one here knows everything about Tolkien or is perfect you might learn a lot more from others.