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jallanite · 11-03-2012, 01:59 PM

From The Fellowship of the Ring, book II, chapter 2:

So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …

This goes back to Tolkien’s earliest drafts. From The Return of the Shadow, (HoME 6), page 78:

Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths: and men-wraiths are servants of the Lord, and they brought all their rings back to him [Sauron]; …

Later Tolkien discarded the idea of elf-wraiths and had nine rings, not three only, given directly by Sauron to Men. But the idea remains that the Men who had been turned into wraiths by the Rings brought their Rings to Sauron.

From The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, chapter 7, three paragraphs from the end:

You [Frodo] saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.

From letter 246 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:

… they [the Nazgûl] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his [Sauron’s] that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control over their wills.

This shows what Tolkien considered to be the truth about who actually held the rings.

Your explanations don’t explain why Gandalf at the Council of Elrond has changed his account from what he had earlier told Frodo or why Galadriel’s account agrees with this earlier account, both of which agree with Tolkien’s account in letter 246. Either of your explanations are possible but are very incomplete.

My explanation is also conjectural but at least complete and requires no extra untold explanation about Saruman, which in any case does not explain why neither Gandalf (when explaining to Bilbo) and later Galadriel do not mention the Saruman explanation which is indeed only your own invention.

You might as well invent that Gandalf’s thought processes at the moment were being interfered with by his own ring through which he could access some of Sauron’s thoughts.

Your Saruman explanation requires that Gandalf rejects Saruman’s explanation when talking with Frodo. Presumably Gandalf must have some reason for saying what he does other that his general distrust of Saruman, because at point Gandalf still generally trusts Saruman. Only after he has personally learned that Saruman has betrayed the Council does Gandalf, according to you, put forth a different account of the fate of the Nine, which you suggest came from Saruman. This explanation raises more problems than it solves.

11-03-2012, 01:59 PM	#69
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	From The Fellowship of the Ring, book II, chapter 2: So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; … This goes back to Tolkien’s earliest drafts. From The Return of the Shadow, (HoME 6), page 78: Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths: and men-wraiths are servants of the Lord, and they brought all their rings back to him [Sauron]; … Later Tolkien discarded the idea of elf-wraiths and had nine rings, not three only, given directly by Sauron to Men. But the idea remains that the Men who had been turned into wraiths by the Rings brought their Rings to Sauron. From The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, chapter 7, three paragraphs from the end: You [Frodo] saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. From letter 246 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien: … they [the Nazgûl] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his [Sauron’s] that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control over their wills. This shows what Tolkien considered to be the truth about who actually held the rings. Your explanations don’t explain why Gandalf at the Council of Elrond has changed his account from what he had earlier told Frodo or why Galadriel’s account agrees with this earlier account, both of which agree with Tolkien’s account in letter 246. Either of your explanations are possible but are very incomplete. My explanation is also conjectural but at least complete and requires no extra untold explanation about Saruman, which in any case does not explain why neither Gandalf (when explaining to Bilbo) and later Galadriel do not mention the Saruman explanation which is indeed only your own invention. You might as well invent that Gandalf’s thought processes at the moment were being interfered with by his own ring through which he could access some of Sauron’s thoughts. Your Saruman explanation requires that Gandalf rejects Saruman’s explanation when talking with Frodo. Presumably Gandalf must have some reason for saying what he does other that his general distrust of Saruman, because at point Gandalf still generally trusts Saruman. Only after he has personally learned that Saruman has betrayed the Council does Gandalf, according to you, put forth a different account of the fate of the Nine, which you suggest came from Saruman. This explanation raises more problems than it solves. Last edited by jallanite; 11-03-2012 at 02:16 PM.