[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

In RotK it is said, "it was then made a law of the royal house that the eldest child of the King, whether man or woman, should receive the sceptre." [p. 353] This is not a denial of rulership. This would actually be some progress on the island of Numenor.

This sentence from The Lord of the Rings seems to make no sense. According to what this says, approximately half of the rulers of Númenor following Tar-Ancalimë would be Ruling Queens, not only two. Tolkien appears to have made an error.

Possibly Tolkien has ignored the possibility of refusing the sceptre. But Christopher Tolkien near the end of “Aldarion and Erendis″ in Unfinished Tales notes that outside of The Lord of the Rings the new law of succession is normally noted differently:

But by this ‘new law’ the (eldest) daughter of the Ruler inherited the Sceptre, if he had no son (this being, of course, in contradiction to what is said in The Lord of the Rings). By the advice of the Council it was added that she was free to refuse.

In “The Line of Elros” in Unfinished Tales the law is stated as in “Aldarion and Erendis”:

In her [Tar-Ancalimë’s] favour Aldarion altered the law of succession, so that the (eldest) daughter of a King should succeed, if he had no sons.

But in the same document it is noted for IX Tar-Súrion:

He was the third child of Tar-Anárion; his sisters refused the sceptre.

This must assume that The Lord of the Rings version of the new law is in effect.

So even if one takes The Lord of the Rings version of the new law as valid there is still sexism in that female may refused the sceptre while males may not and if there are no sons and all females refuse the sceptre then the sceptre passes to the nearest male kinsman of male descent from Elros.

Sexism occurs when there is any issue of sex at all. That said, the majority of both men and women may agree that some examples of sexism are justified. For example, in Toronto, women travelling late hours on Toronto Transit vehicles may request to be let off between stops and the driver will do this unless there is some reason why the driver cannot safely stop exactly where required.

Certainly. I've no problem with class.

I do with inherited class, the usual problems.

Democracy is for very small populations and does not work in large ones. Like a village is a place where Democracy can be practical.

True for direct democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy ). Not true of represenative democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy ). Constitutional monarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy) is really representative democracy in disguise in which the supposed monarch is almost entirely a puppet in the hands of the genuine rulers.

It is the opinion of many people in many countries that representational democracy/constitutional monarchy is working reasonably well in their countries and other countries. Few people would prefer the imposition of an hereditary autocracy or want to return to a period in which woman were mostly given inferior education.

I did not mean to say they were equals. That is my fault. Feanor as we are told, "was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil., p. 112] Of Galadriel it is said that, "she was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years... she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [UT, p. 241] And of the two of them it is said, "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor were unfriends for ever... she withheld her goodwill from none save only Feanor." [UT, p. 241]

And because Fëanor is male and of a particular lineage he and his loutish sons have great wealth and possessions while Galadriel, natively, has less. More sexism.

Originally Tolkien had Galadriel gain her rulership by marrying into a lineage outside the Noldor. Later he had both Celeborn and Galadriel somehow gain possession of Lothlórien which was entirely outside the circle of Noldorin and Sindarin lords. In both cases this is partly sexism.

The arenas to which their skills are best put to use are fine enough. I believe that the politicians in my country of the U.S.A. are not fit for the arena in which they get down and dirty.

I am not certain what you are talking about. What countries historically have had a history which is distinctly less vile than the U.S.A. and is not a democracy?

I don't believe they did but Quintus did a good job with them. Exciting tale.

And lots of exciting tales are fictional. The story of Achilles and Penesthilia is known to have been previously written by many authors before Quintus Smyrnae.

I did not mean to reference Achilles-Penthesilia as a historical anecdote. My point was that the best male warrior will best the best female warrior.

Not necessarily. Penesthilia is a fictional character who is beaten because the authors want her to be beaten. The story of Achilles continues until the authors want Achilles to be beaten and slain, slain by Paris or by Apollo or by the two of them. Nothing is proved by such fictions. There is no such thing as “best male warrior” or “best female warrior” in real life. And in real life often the one generally perceived as the inferior may turn out to be the victor in a particular contest.

An unexpected trick may gain the victory against odds.

Not that females cannot beat males in a fight. I recall watching an entertaining beatdown in the street when a woman I know beat this guy up and basically overpowered him so badly she was bashing his head into a car.

Since I have no information about what the fight was about, I could have no opinion about whom I should be rooting for, if either of the two.

Basically Tolkien has mainly written books set in sexist societies for the same reason that historical writers do. The reader does not expect to be reading a tale set in a perfect utopia. Of course, Tolkien was usually writing an heroic romance, not a realistic novel which one should expect to be grimmer. But, in that mode, the Shire is somewhat cleaned up but mainly based on places he was brought up. The sexism exhibited is the normal sexism one expects of the kind of places and times about which he writes, also somewhat cleaned up, and mostly with no light shed on it.

You appear to be supporting very much the kind of thing which Mithalwen’s post makes fun of. The link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8C...ature=youtu.be I find wonderful.