[Puddleglum]

Good post, Zigur.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

Originally Posted by Raynor

That is contradicted by the fact that the Valar did not let the Children do this on their own, they even sent some of their maiar, and even that failed. In fact, to help save the Children, Eru himself had to intervene and give a fallen hero new life and new power.

Parents are not limited, in helping their children grow, to only the two extremes of:

• Total hands off, let them sink or swim on their own. <and>
• Put them on your shoulders and carry them around.

The plan of the Valar *in this instance* (and incorporated in Eru's intervention by returning Gandalf) was in this middle area:

"They were primarily sent (to) train, advise, instruct, and arouse those threatened by Sauron; but not just to the job for them."

Gandalf took a few discrete active steps, like defending the company from the Balrog, or opposing the Witch King's entry into Minas Tirith (though only for a few minutes) - but he didn't defeat Sauron in direct confrontation - or even the Witch King, for that matter. In fact ...

"so powerful was the whole train of HUMAN RESISTANCE, that he himself had kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between him and the WK actually occurs: the battle {and the WK's defeat} passed to other MORTAL hands."

That is, Gandalf did his job so well that MORTAL hands were *ABLE* to defeat the Witch King.

Which, of course, exemplifies the desire of every parent raising a child. They want their child to grow to the point they *CAN* stand on their own two feet. But they also know that this requires a balance or mix of training, encouragement, *Some* help, but also *Some* allowing them to fall and fail. It's not a science and their is no valid "formula".

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One thing I have always found very interesting about the Valar is their capacity to occasionally make bad decisions, however well-intentioned, and the way that their great compassion occasionally overwhelmed their better judgement.

Which brings up an interesting thought: that Eru is dealing with the Valar in a similar way as the Valar are dealing with the Eruhini. He allowed them to enter Ea to prepare it for and guide the Eruhini. But he is also training THEM in the art of (if you will) "Parenting".

The Eruhini are Eru's children, and he does intervene on occasion. But he is also allowing the Valar to try and fall and get up and learn and try again in their task as teachers and guardians (or foster parents?) of the Children.

The same is true of the defeat of Sauron. Gandalf organized and kindled such a resistance (from Rohan, Gondor, Lorien, Rivendell, and others - most crucially, the Shire in the form of Frodo and friends) that Sauron was neutralized *primarily* through the actions and choices of Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Hobbits, etc. In short, by the actions of the non-divine beings of Middle Earth, rather than by the "the might and glory of the Valar (or Maiar) fully revealed"