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Galin · 02-27-2012, 10:29 AM

Well, when in doubt I employ the Tale of Years (or Annals) with the number I know they were written to reflect, or 9.582. There are other matters concerning which we have JRRT writing something later, very arguably without checking with what he had written (or published even) years before -- or at least there are scenarios where one wonders about this....

... for famed example: did Tolkien really and knowingly intend that Galadriel should not be part of Feanor's rebellion? despite that he had already published she had been a leader of the Exiles, and specifically banned for this role? There's no indication he remembered what he had already published here (possibly confusing what he had 'merely written' with what he had published), and no way to read his mind obviously.

Other examples could be raised as well. For all we know Tolkien intended to rewrite the Annals of Aman (or the Tale of Years that records the events in Aman) with 144 in mind, but all we can say is that if he intended to do so, he never did. And as to whether or not he intended anyone to simply substitute 144 for 9.582: I'm not sure if Christopher Tolkien is wholly clear on this matter, or if anyone can be; or can know for certain that Tolkien went over the existing Annals with any real scrutiny and still decided this suited him at all points.

Arguably 144 would have at least allowed for more time between the Awakening of Men and their coming to Beleriand, which concerned Tolkien in the later 1950s -- but to take another example, in the early 1950s the Annals note that it took 7 Valian Years, or somewhere under 70-ish years, for Tirion upon Tuna to be full wrought -- yet subsituting 144 we have 1,008-ish years to construct the same city. This is possible I guess, and I imagine the city as beautiful beyond description, but it's a notable difference in amount in any case.

Things like trees living far longer than their Middle-earth counterparts is one thing, but when it comes to what the Elves might make with their own hands, or how much actual time transpires between certain noted events, for myself I'm not sure Tolkien would not have at least tinkered with things if 144 had become his final and stable view of the Valian Unit (if he could find the time).

02-27-2012, 10:29 AM	#8
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Well, when in doubt I employ the Tale of Years (or Annals) with the number I know they were written to reflect, or 9.582. There are other matters concerning which we have JRRT writing something later, very arguably without checking with what he had written (or published even) years before -- or at least there are scenarios where one wonders about this.... ... for famed example: did Tolkien really and knowingly intend that Galadriel should not be part of Feanor's rebellion? despite that he had already published she had been a leader of the Exiles, and specifically banned for this role? There's no indication he remembered what he had already published here (possibly confusing what he had 'merely written' with what he had published), and no way to read his mind obviously. Other examples could be raised as well. For all we know Tolkien intended to rewrite the Annals of Aman (or the Tale of Years that records the events in Aman) with 144 in mind, but all we can say is that if he intended to do so, he never did. And as to whether or not he intended anyone to simply substitute 144 for 9.582: I'm not sure if Christopher Tolkien is wholly clear on this matter, or if anyone can be; or can know for certain that Tolkien went over the existing Annals with any real scrutiny and still decided this suited him at all points. Arguably 144 would have at least allowed for more time between the Awakening of Men and their coming to Beleriand, which concerned Tolkien in the later 1950s -- but to take another example, in the early 1950s the Annals note that it took 7 Valian Years, or somewhere under 70-ish years, for Tirion upon Tuna to be full wrought -- yet subsituting 144 we have 1,008-ish years to construct the same city. This is possible I guess, and I imagine the city as beautiful beyond description, but it's a notable difference in amount in any case. Things like trees living far longer than their Middle-earth counterparts is one thing, but when it comes to what the Elves might make with their own hands, or how much actual time transpires between certain noted events, for myself I'm not sure Tolkien would not have at least tinkered with things if 144 had become his final and stable view of the Valian Unit (if he could find the time). Last edited by Galin; 02-27-2012 at 02:00 PM.