Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun
As for another LOTR occurrence of the "superior" speech, there are the Witch-king's words to Éowyn:
Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.
It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?
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That's a fascinating comparison,
Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.
More interesting references,
TM! The second one interests me especially - when both "persons" involved use the familiar form, it indicates equality, even a sense of brotherhood. There seems to be a connection on a deeper level between Turin and the sword.
G55, you raise some very good questions concerning that! The closeness and the shared death are thought-provoking aspects.
Underhill, it's always a pleasure to have lured you back into posting!
I'm finding it a great pleasure to discover new layers of understanding even after all these years of studying and rereading Tolkien. And yes! The Troll poem! It's another example of a mutual use of the familiar form, so I'm not sure there's an insult involved. It seems to me that two opponents are mockingly recognizing their equality - neither actually wins the encounter.
I hadn't realized that "thee" etc. are used in the Ent and Entwife's song, but you have a point there - it does add to the sense of loss when there was that closeness before.
And yes!! Galadriel's message to Gimli!! I hadn't thought of that, and it does add a very special intimacy to her words. I must have a thing for the more unusual love stories in Tolkien's tales, as I love this one dearly. What a triumph for the Dwarf - I wonder if she has addressed any other character with the familiar pronoun?! That calls for some more research...
Good point about the
Hobbit,
TM! If the Dwarves also used the familiar pronoun amongst themselves and to Bilbo and Gandalf, there was no need for differentiation anyway. And I bet Smaug didn't bother to address Mr. Baggins formally! So we could imagine that the "you" throughout the book was probably actually a "thee". Thanks also for the reference to that letter, which is interesting to read, even though it doesn't directly touch on our subject.
Thanks for all the great contributions so far! I'm very much enjoying this discussion.