The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - The proto-geography of the Third Age

FlimFlamSam · 08-04-2011, 04:59 PM

William Cloud Hicklin spoke: [In The History of the Hobbit John Rateliffe makes I think a very, very strong case that in the early phases of writing The Hobbit he placed it in the geography of Beleriand]
Not just The Hobbit. While writing Lord of the Rings as well, he returned to borrowing from those earlier stories.

Aiwendil spoke: [The Hobbit assumes Beleriand survived the Great Battle and is set after it – is not really tenable either, since all the contemporary Silmarillion accounts have Beleriand destroyed.]
The Hobbit borrowed some thoughts, that is undeniable.
At the time the Eriol story was still a major influence.

When writing Lord of the Rings, Beleriand was re-imagined as the land we now know as North-west Middle Earth and that it had Elvish-isles as a part of it, of which Numenor was one of these--not raised from the sea.
Part of that is seen with the comment about Gandalf taking young hobbits out to sea (to visit the Elvish-isles).

Part of this idea also still survives in Lord of the Rings in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, where when Arwen and Aragorn meet in Caras Galadhon; Aragorn appears to be almost an Elf-lord from the Isles in the West (Isles--plural) not Eressea; a single island.

At that time the Kings of Numenor still numbered 13 as far as into making Appendix A (Peoples of Middle-earth). And Elendil/Orendil/Valandil was a Lord on one of these Isles, not Numenor--as mentioned earlier in a post.
Gil-Galad (and at one point Galadriel his sister) was the son (and possibly Galadriel as daughter) of Feanor and also dwelt on one of these islands.

Since Mr. Tolkien had already borrowed the visuals and descriptions for both Menegroth, Nargothrond and Esgalduin in creating the Halls of the Elven-king in Mirkwood, neither of those names would do. He did however transplant Neldoreth to the Sea of Rhun, satisfying both the requirement for a location for Thingol, Melian and Luthien. (See HOME War of the Ring, the second map).
At that point only Elrond, Gondolin and Turgon had been used as named things in The Hobbit. Everything else was open to interpretation and borrowing.

Ossir, the land of seven rivers still remained, and was eventually re-worked as the land of Gondor. Cirdan, Lord of the Falas, now had Belfalas and the port of Edhellond as later named.

It is notable that the upper portion beyond Mirkwood on these maps was not drawn, namely the Grey Mountains and Withered Heath since they existed in The Hobbit. Possibly he was considering revising that area to match descriptions for the Iron Mountains and Angband. Hithlum (a suitable location near the Misty Mountains, and Mithrim with its lake along with Nevrast with its marshy area and of course Dor-Lomin). All areas where the Edain resided, and ultimately where after recrossing the Blue Mountains in The Silmarillion they mysteriously dwelt in Lord of the Rings.

Anduin matches the description fairly well for Sirion, even to the point of having Tol Sirion/Cair Andros, the fens of Serech/Wetwang/Nindalf and even Andram--when the first Lord of the Rings map is interconnected with the second map containing the reworked lands of Gondor and Mordor this Andram runs from the White Mountains, through Emyn Muil and out to a vast area near the mountains of Rhun, including a lone hill--presumably Amon Ereb or its equivalent with another nearby forest (Brethil?).
That this area is close in description to the location of Gondolin, later adapted as Minas Anor/Tirith is also curious. Although, the description better fits the sister city of Minas Ithil, hidden away in a once lush valley, complete with a secret river entrance (Henneth Annun?) and a treacherous pass where Glorfindel duels a Balrog/Sam duels Shelob and where many Elves and Men had died in her clutches over the ages.

A river is shown flowing into the Celduin from this area, which could possibly be a new location for Nargothrond, presuming the Turin story was to be retained.

The isle of Balar at the mouths of Sirion/Anduin is now named Tolfalas.

The mountains of Mirkwood and the nearby spiders as already used in The Hobbit substituted well for the Mountains of Terror Beren crosses on his wanderings leading ultimately to Neldoreth.

As mentioned, Nogrod was the location of Moria/Khazad-dum, with Neldoreth now relocated giving new significance to the story of the Nauglamir and the ambush at Sarn Athrad on the Old Dwarf Road, since Erebor and the Iron Hills were unpopulated by dwarves at this time Moria/Nogrod/Khazad-dum would be the closest location--and possibly even a precurser to the ambush of Isildur at the Gladden Fields.

Many other points were made in other posts, but these two quoted seemed to be able to allow the very brief summary above.

08-04-2011, 04:59 PM	#14
FlimFlamSam Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 25	Beleriand Beleriand wherefore art thou Beleriand? William Cloud Hicklin spoke: [In The History of the Hobbit John Rateliffe makes I think a very, very strong case that in the early phases of writing The Hobbit he placed it in the geography of Beleriand] Not just The Hobbit. While writing Lord of the Rings as well, he returned to borrowing from those earlier stories. Aiwendil spoke: [The Hobbit assumes Beleriand survived the Great Battle and is set after it – is not really tenable either, since all the contemporary Silmarillion accounts have Beleriand destroyed.] The Hobbit borrowed some thoughts, that is undeniable. At the time the Eriol story was still a major influence. When writing Lord of the Rings, Beleriand was re-imagined as the land we now know as North-west Middle Earth and that it had Elvish-isles as a part of it, of which Numenor was one of these--not raised from the sea. Part of that is seen with the comment about Gandalf taking young hobbits out to sea (to visit the Elvish-isles). Part of this idea also still survives in Lord of the Rings in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, where when Arwen and Aragorn meet in Caras Galadhon; Aragorn appears to be almost an Elf-lord from the Isles in the West (Isles--plural) not Eressea; a single island. At that time the Kings of Numenor still numbered 13 as far as into making Appendix A (Peoples of Middle-earth). And Elendil/Orendil/Valandil was a Lord on one of these Isles, not Numenor--as mentioned earlier in a post. Gil-Galad (and at one point Galadriel his sister) was the son (and possibly Galadriel as daughter) of Feanor and also dwelt on one of these islands. Since Mr. Tolkien had already borrowed the visuals and descriptions for both Menegroth, Nargothrond and Esgalduin in creating the Halls of the Elven-king in Mirkwood, neither of those names would do. He did however transplant Neldoreth to the Sea of Rhun, satisfying both the requirement for a location for Thingol, Melian and Luthien. (See HOME War of the Ring, the second map). At that point only Elrond, Gondolin and Turgon had been used as named things in The Hobbit. Everything else was open to interpretation and borrowing. Ossir, the land of seven rivers still remained, and was eventually re-worked as the land of Gondor. Cirdan, Lord of the Falas, now had Belfalas and the port of Edhellond as later named. It is notable that the upper portion beyond Mirkwood on these maps was not drawn, namely the Grey Mountains and Withered Heath since they existed in The Hobbit. Possibly he was considering revising that area to match descriptions for the Iron Mountains and Angband. Hithlum (a suitable location near the Misty Mountains, and Mithrim with its lake along with Nevrast with its marshy area and of course Dor-Lomin). All areas where the Edain resided, and ultimately where after recrossing the Blue Mountains in The Silmarillion they mysteriously dwelt in Lord of the Rings. Anduin matches the description fairly well for Sirion, even to the point of having Tol Sirion/Cair Andros, the fens of Serech/Wetwang/Nindalf and even Andram--when the first Lord of the Rings map is interconnected with the second map containing the reworked lands of Gondor and Mordor this Andram runs from the White Mountains, through Emyn Muil and out to a vast area near the mountains of Rhun, including a lone hill--presumably Amon Ereb or its equivalent with another nearby forest (Brethil?). That this area is close in description to the location of Gondolin, later adapted as Minas Anor/Tirith is also curious. Although, the description better fits the sister city of Minas Ithil, hidden away in a once lush valley, complete with a secret river entrance (Henneth Annun?) and a treacherous pass where Glorfindel duels a Balrog/Sam duels Shelob and where many Elves and Men had died in her clutches over the ages. A river is shown flowing into the Celduin from this area, which could possibly be a new location for Nargothrond, presuming the Turin story was to be retained. The isle of Balar at the mouths of Sirion/Anduin is now named Tolfalas. The mountains of Mirkwood and the nearby spiders as already used in The Hobbit substituted well for the Mountains of Terror Beren crosses on his wanderings leading ultimately to Neldoreth. As mentioned, Nogrod was the location of Moria/Khazad-dum, with Neldoreth now relocated giving new significance to the story of the Nauglamir and the ambush at Sarn Athrad on the Old Dwarf Road, since Erebor and the Iron Hills were unpopulated by dwarves at this time Moria/Nogrod/Khazad-dum would be the closest location--and possibly even a precurser to the ambush of Isildur at the Gladden Fields. Many other points were made in other posts, but these two quoted seemed to be able to allow the very brief summary above.