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Old 05-26-2011, 09:35 AM   #15
blantyr
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It might be useful to bring in the concepts of fëa and hröa, roughly 'soul' and 'body'. It might be possible to say that magic is the soul manipulating or sensing the world directly rather than through the body.

Not all souls would be created equal. From the valar to the dúnedain there might be a gradation of souls that can to a greater to lesser extent manipulate the world. Maia can do more than noldor who can do more than sylvan, etc… Perhaps ordinary humans, dwarves, orcs or other creatures have some ability as well, but not all that much.

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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Thinking of all the examples I can–

There's occasional "proper" spell-casting, sometimes with incantations and the works; there's a sort of "techno-magic", or "crafting" magic; there's the ability to influence natural forces; and there's "psychic powers" such as foresight or telepathy. These all could be termed "magic" of sorts. Thing is, they all shade into each other quite a bit, and also into the realm of the mundane, so that much of the time it's not clear exactly what you're seeing (if anything).

And no, I don't think that's just Tolkien being sloppy– it's just that, unlike many modern fantasy authors, he was neither drawing on RPG-ing experience, nor writing with one eye on the fanboy-market.
I'm not sure Tolkien was all that sloppy. There may be broad patterns. They are just more complicated than some modern writers use.

If rings and staves are general purpose tools, while palantír and Moria's west gate were dedicated to specific tasks, we might distinguish users of magic in the same way. Gandalf has a wide variety of abilities, using "proper spell casting" while Aragorn's healing and prophecy are more narrow and dedicated. Aragorn doesn't use "incantations and the works". I'm not sure I like the phrase 'psychic powers'. That is more a science fiction phrase than fantasy. Still, James Schmitz in one of his Telzey Amberdon books distinguished between the Type One Psi with a wide variety of abilities and the Type Two Psi with one or two narrow abilities. We might have a similar distinction here, that people like Tom Bombadil, Gandalf and Lúthien are far more versatile than Aragorn.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I'm not sure if doing magic through music could fit under this - music is kind of a magnifying artifact.
Music might be considered similar to incantations or gestures, part of "the works," another tool that people like Tom Bombadil or Lúthien use to shape their abilities. The specialist people with narrowly focused abilities would be less likely to use such techniques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
A similar question would be about objects that are magical without anyone having to trigger the magic. Silmarilli? They shine all the time. Gondolin swords that glow in the presence of enemies? You need the enemies, true, but the sword doesn't have to be held or anything like that.
Agreed. Not all crafted items require someone to wield or activate them, though many do…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Athelas doesn't work that way in any other preson's hands. Likewise, Aragorn was only able to heal Faramir with the help of Athelas.
Hmm… It would seem both Aragorn and athelas need each other to work fully?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
What about Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw? Nimrodel (the river)?

However, I absolutely agree with what you said. Melian says about Anglachel, "The heart of the smith still dwells in it" - something that's applicable to many other items.
Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw might be considered crafted items. Most enchanted items seem to be made by elves. I have the impression that dwarves in the old days could also project parts of their souls into things of their making. Would the blades the hobbits acquired on the Barrow Downs be made the same way? Might the dúnedain be able to craft artifacts using essentially the same techniques as the elves?

I heard a different tale of Nimrodel. There was an article in Tolkiengateway that claims elves can reject the call of Mandos, that they can choose to become ghosts. If fëa and hröa are parted through death, the fëa can linger where it lived. If putting on the Ring allowed Frodo to see into the realm of spirits, might he have put it on and seen Nimrodel?

I'm not claiming the above conjecture as canon, but it seems to fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I think that names of people and things carry the spirit of those people. When you say a Vala's name, it's as if you bring their presence. Examples:

-Frodo's shout "Elbereth Gilthoniel" scares the Nazgul on Weathertop from immediate actions

-Gondorians avoid naming Sauron and Mordor

-The name "Bombadil" brings courage to Frodo in the Barrow
Agreed. I note that the examples you give involve mighty names. I don't know that this sort of naming would work for beings less than Valar or Maia. Still, naming names might bring benefit, might work as something vaguely like prayer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I'd say that the weather changes because of the overall victory, not only Eowyn's over the Wi-Ki. The weather changes according to the events, but the events don't change the weather.

I can only speculate about the first, but we know the second - Sauron woke up his volcano.
I'm not entirely confident I understand the weather either. In part, it might respond to the will of the mighty. I have imagined the wind from the west that blew back the smoke of Mount Doom prior to the Pelennor battle might have involved a contest of wills between Sauron and the Valar. In part, the weather might act vaguely like the crowd at a sporting event, changing to reflect events going on down below.

The storm at Caradhras? I had another thought, a wild conjecture. The mountain apparently long had a reputation for cruelty. It is as if some malicious spirit dwelled within the mountain. A balrog for instance? I have also thought that Saruman might have wanted the Fellowship to try to pass the Gap of Rohan. I really don't know.
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