[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ah, now why Steve?

While I have some time, let's look at Steve.

Day 1

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So, I was trying to read everything posted before I did, but it seems like I'm trying to climb to the top of an ever-growing mountain.


That would be like holding the record for the longest jump on the Moon- totally irrelevant. In fact, let's make it a Day 1 first and totally ignore phantom for a whole Day... well, actually, it's too late for that now that he's been voted in, but we should've.



Well, he only made that promise after you voted for him. Innocent mistake or a sneaky Elvish excuse for justifying voting phantom?


If he acted (even remotely) consistently (other than attention-seeking, of course), he wouldn't be the phantom. Or of course, he could double bluff and just be hinting to the Sons of Elrond that he's the Undecided so that they don't kill him (yet). Or he could begin pretending to hint to them to save himself. Or... well... there's too many possibilities. We'll just have to see what happens.

I agree with you about it being a bad idea, but you can't deny that it would be quite interesting.


"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*


It's true. People seem to tend to lose steam about half way through the second half of the Day.


Definitely. This makes Inzil look good. Though, on the other hand, few votes means that the Elves can monopolise the voting.


Have you ever spoken to an angry wolf?


It would be quite funny if they were just playing with us like that, wouldn't it?



Really? We just get 24 hours as usual. Of course, the "I didn't have time to read the thread so I won't comment at all" excuse is more likely to disappear.

Also, an interesting thing would be to see what happens if the Undecided becomes a Rep toDay... er... toOrcWakingCycle.

First post, responding to various people. The second and third snippets are directed at Lottie. In the second, he brings up the idea that Lottie could have been trying to justify her Elvish self for voting tp. He wasn't the first one to question Lottie's vote, certainly, but he does leave it open for an innocent interpretation also.
He also there agrees with me about it being better to not vote for rep than make one at random.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

You can have some of this one *hands Boro a few scattered vertebrae*


I don't like this at all. All this talk about power makes you seem like you're trying to sh


And what about the other options? For example, not basing our Day around the phantom and actually trying to catch some elves. Isn't that what we're trying to do? It's much too early to be turning this into a power-contest, especially since all of us (save five) know nothing, and really have nothing to base anything on.

Also, you speak as if the phantom is on his own team, and, while it is true that it might seem as such, in the end he will b helping one team to win. All this talk of "appeasing" him is pointless- we shouldn't have to bribe him onto our side. If he's an Elf, then he'll just be pretending to be, and if he's an orc then he already should be. And if it's power he wants, he should be the one that has to work to convince us of his innocence.

And finally, this:

So this is basically a case of saying "See, I could be a good representative *hint hint*, but look, I'm voting Lommy for the same job, so it doesn't look like I'm advocating myself too much, and it looks like I'd rather have someone else in charge instead because I 'think' she might be better than me, though I'll still do the job if you rally want me." Or at least, that' what it would mean if you're sneakily trying to get voted for rep, though you could still be innocent and trying to gain power.


I know this post is totally focused on Boro's, but it just seemed wrong in so many ways!


This, on the other hand I kind of agree with:

I.e., we've been so focused on phantom, that we haven't even discussed other candidates or possible voting strategies, and by that I mean whether we want many 'weak' representatives (in which case we might as well just be a normal village), or a few 'powerful' representatives (which is much more risky because one of them could be a wolf, but could also be a strong force for good), or perhaps a mix (which is probably what will happen. But would that be good?

This was in response to Boro, and Steve doesn't appear to care for Boro's words, aside from agreeing that all focus shouldn't be on tp.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm going to need to go soon, but I'm considering choosing Legate or Zil as rep. Possibly Lommy, if she can convince me, but that would be a bit too much of an anti-phantom move, which is just as bad as the original pro-phantom move at the beginning of the Day.

Looking at Legate, me, or Lommy for rep.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Though I have to admit that it's Boro that turned voting Lommy into a purely anti-phantom move. So maybe he's trying to make us not vote too anti-phantom (seems the general consensus these days, which makes it a bit of a bangwaggon) and vote him instead, who he portrays as the second best anti-phantomer. Or maybe I'm just reading reading Boro all wrong. I don't know if he'd be that obvious. But if I'm not, I definitely don't like what he's doing by trying to manipulate the Day (maybe even more than the phantom).

In fact, because of him, the anti-phantom bandwaggon now almost seems worse to me than the pro-phantom bandwaggon at the beginning. Or maybe he's just trying to make it seem that way.



And if both Boro and phantom are wolves...

Thinks Boro is trying to make an "anti-phantom bandwaggon, which Steve doesn't care for.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Yes, contest. And with no personal gain whatsoever.

Though that was a kind of clever way to stop so many people voting for you so soon, wasn't it?

Some questioning of tp.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Considering voting for rep:
Legate
Zil
Greenie

Also look quite good:
Foley
Lommy

THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION:
The Phantom

Will not vote:
Boro (I have no idea about his alignment, but I don't like his whole "I'll negate phantom" thing)


I'm not sure about other people yet.

No longer considering Lommy for rep (because of Boro?), but still thinks she 'looks quite good'. Won't vote Boro because of his anti-tp platform.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Actually, I'm not sure about Zil. His not voting point seemed good at first, but it may well be something that could help the Elves. Then again, it seemed well-meaning at the time. He was also the first person to suggest not voting, which might be something too obvious for a wolf. Though he may have just been trying to lure unsuspecting innocents (or at least, true orcs) to agree with him, and therefore make them look suspicious (and if someone didn't vote for this reason, would also mean less orc-votes). On the other hand, it seems more to me like he's advocating thinking/waiting until people have actually started posting before voting (instead of doing a Sally), which is just reasonable.

In any case, even if there is a chance he's evil, it might be a good idea to vote him in as a representative to force him out of the shadows (both literally and figuratively).

Changes his mind about whether I or tp was right about the rep-voting deal. Seems rather flip-floppy here overall, and says I should be considered for rep.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So it's good to vote randomly because having an SoE as a rep this early is useful later, but also because you're less likely to get one?

Then goes back to questioning tp about the latter's statement that one is more likely to vote an SoE the longer one waits (writer's note- )

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It does, but then what's the point of having representatives if you're just effectively shrinking the village to half its size?

In response to Wilwa. Honestly, I don't quite get what she was talking about, but it's after lunch and I'm a bit sleepy.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I think they'll probably want to be reps as late in the game as possible. However obvious that may sound, my point is that on Day 2, the reps will be under less scrutiny than on Day 1, and so on, because there will be more other things to go on (in terms of suspicion). So, as well as being more important later on, I think the Elves will want to reps later because they'll have less focus on them.

Thinks the SoE's would rather be reps later than sooner, because they'd be under more scrutiny later on. I see his point, but to me nothing's as concrete for analysis as people's votes.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, out of Legate and Greenie, I'm going to vote

[highlight++Greenie[/highlight



Because I like her reasoning and don't think that she's evil.

Votes Greenie for rep, who he'd replaced Lommy with in his top choices.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Why is everyone focusing on either giving the phantom power or negating him? can't we just treat him like a normal representative.

So here Inzil is basically repeating Boro's post about balancing phantom with others, even down to the same suggestion of people: Boro and Lommy. I don't know why, but I don't like the implications of this. Of course, he does also mention Wilwa, but he's still mentioning the same thing. If we make phantom the centre of the game we won't be able to catch any elves.

Seems a bit hypocritical, as he himself had made tp his main topic earlier.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And since everyone's been commenting on it, I just want to say:
Basically, I hope that this was just a joke/spoof that your later comments were just a continuation. In my opinion, it is almost always better to wait (if possible) until people have actually posted before voting, so that you can see what you think of them.

Hm... It takes one to know one. The elves always accuse others of using "elf trick"s as you call them.

Defends Boro somewhat against tp.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Not really, it just sounds like he wants a bit of excitement as opposed to boring, planned out rules for voting each Day. Basically, for everyone to vote what they want without having to think of tactics. Which would certainly make this game far more interesting (whether or not it decreases our chances of winning).



Now this is quite a good point.



But then, if they weren't evil, they'd just get Night-killed.

I didn't want to mention it, but if we do that then it's pretty obvious that if they're not evil they'll get Night-killed. Unless the Elves want to confuse us by not doing so.

Also, I'm not sure if the second "who" was meant to be a "we", but if it was, I just think that it will be very unlikely for us as a whole to reach a consensus on who is trustworthy (That's the whole point of having more than representative), and anyway, as I just said, they'd get quickly picked off by the wolves.


Isn't the Undecided Orc still a true orc even if he works for the elves? Just saying.


Something always happens on Day 1. It doesn't have to be two people voting within the first 20 posts on Day 1. And as you can see, that's kept the attention on them the whole Day (and you too, but I'm sure you enjoy that).

Responding to Izzy, Nog, Lottie and tp x 2. He notes to tp that the UoUA is still an Orc whoever he sides with.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So, changes in how I view people:

Rune- looks generally innocent.
Shasta - Looks good now, but seemed a bit evil to me at first
Inzil - A few things every so often make me loose a little faith in his innocence, but he still seems good.
Nerwen - Looks very good- too good in fact. Especially since she seems to be jumping on the anti-phantom/Lottie logic bandwaggon
Legate- I like what he's saying, but he seems a bit unusual to me.
Wilwa- There's definitely something wrong here. A hint of Elvishness or something.
Izzy- Looks generally innocent but I don't agree with some of her logic.


And I still don't like Boro.


All other people are under my radar and/or should post more.


A few comments:

The fact that Boro (who I don't think looks innocent) suggested Lommy makes Lommy seem good, because firstly, it seems a little too obvious (trying to get a packmate voted as rep, an anti-phantom in this case); and secondly, she was already popular and looked good, so I think he just latched onto that because she's be an easy person to suggest as the anti-phantom).

The phantom actually doesn't look evil- I just disagree with most of what he's saying, and one of the problems is that it makes me feel like those against him are all good, even though I suspect some for other reasons. However, maybe he's trying to cause controversy to root out the elves. And anyway, it would be a bit pointless to lynch him toDay anyway, when we have nothing against him except his disagreeable posts that advocate/advertise voting for him.

Mira's vote: This is where Zil's "no vote is better than a pointless vote" comes in. What if (however unlikelily) the Seer had come out of hiding and declared phantom an elf. Votes like that would just be sentencing us to doom.

Another thing I've noticed is the phantom-Boro-Inzil triangle. Boro and Inzil attacks phantom, and Inzil even votes Boro for rep. I don't like it at all. It would be a great (and very bold) move for the elves to play.

I will be very annoyed if it turns out that phorc, Sally and Lottie are both Elves. As I believe Greenie said earlier, it's quite likely that one of the two (particularly Sally or Lottie) are wolves, as it would be an almost perfect disguise,

On that note, on the phantom and Lottie teamwork (trying to defend their side): they seem a bit too obvious to be elves, but that's exactly the sort of completely bold and reckless move the phantom would try.


Basically, if I were a rep, I think that I would definitely lynch Boro, but for some reason Izzy doesn't seem so benign to me now either.

Doesn't like Boro, and posits that he and I are Elves working in concert against tp. Thinks tp probably isn't evil, but says "those against him are all good". Even Boro and me? Also thinks either Sally and Lottie are wolves. Ends by saying he would lynch Boro, but doesn't like Izzy either.

Day 2

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I personally think that makes her more suspicious, because if she was an elf she'd be voting for her packmate, which makes her look better, but because she only used one vote out of the two, she could've just been trying to look good while not decisively trying to lynch her, which would be a good cover for an Elf.


Looks like you're trying too hard.


So that the wolves would think that.

Responding to tp x 2 and Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Basically, I'm not sure what to think about the phantom-Nerwen argument, but there's something about it that makes me think that they're both on the same side. Either they're fighting Orcs, or both very cunning Elves trying to dominate the Day by confusing all of us. And since they're both very experienced and cunning players, I wouldn't put it past either of them.

Though, obviously, the most probable option is that they're both Orcs that just don't agree (as we know happens so often).

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So phantom, why didn't you vote?

And saying "in order to allow Lottie to be lynched" is not a satisfactory answer. If you are an Orc and truly believed her to be an Elf, it would've made sense to vote her as well (though it might have looked as though you were an Elf just attaching yourself to her death which was already happening, but if you're an Orc then that shouldn't matter because it's more important to lynch Elves than save yourself from possible future accusations). And the other option would be to vote someone else, which would either be a throwaway vote (Which would look suspicious), or could take someone else down too (Which could also look suspicious, as though you want to take an innocent down as well as one of your fellows, if you were an Elf.)

Anyway, my point is that whatever you would've voted would've most likely been criticised or at least questioned in some way, but not voting at all is even worse, because it makes it look as if you don't want to do anything objectionable. It even looks- dare I say it- "careful".

So why choose to vote for no-one when as an innocent Orc it would've been better to vote for who you found suspicious (or at least attempt to get someone lynched)?


I actually suspect that if the phantom does have a special role, he's the Undecided Orc who decided to leave his record clean yesterDay so that he could choose without implications in the Night. And anyway, he's been trying to prove that he's innocent since the beginning, which would be beneficial to have the rest of us believe whatever role he chose to take.


Hm... this musing seems to have ended up a bit longer than expected, but still, "I thought it prudent to leave the lynch the way it was" is no excuse to just purposefully not commit yourself to a vote when you were chosen as a carrier of votes.

Questions tp about his failure to use his three votes Day 1. Posits tp could be UoUA who voted the way he did to "keep his hands clean". That certainly occurred to me as a possibility also.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

This is a very good point. He posted that after he knew that Lottie was lynched. And knowing the phantom, a stunt like that wouldn't be too unlikely if he felt in danger.


That seems about right.


They may have thought it would be a great way to deflect suspicion. It's so obviously suspicious that maybe the hoped that no-one would vote for them. Of course, if that was their plan, it failed miserably, but with one dying it would make the other seem less suspicious, which is why I think we definitely shouldn't cross Sally off the "Suspicious" list.

In the first bit he agrees with Legate about the possibility that a phantelf might have "revealed" after Lottie's fate was sealed to deflect some suspicion.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Thank you those who have voted for me so far. Vote me for a change, for a new dawn... er... yeah. Anyway, I seem to have got something that's made the whole back of my palate swell up. So we'll see how I am tomorrow, and hopefully I'll be able to post more then.


As for who I want to vote as rep, I'm thinking either Legate or Inzil. Or maybe even Sally, just to see what she'd do. *Thinks* Well, maybe not.

Anyway, of the two above, since he already has a vote, I think I'll cement

highlight]++Legate[/highlight

as a representative.

Considers Legate, me, or Sally(?) for rep. Ends up with Legate.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm sorry, I haven't had much of a chance to get online at all today, and when I have tried to go on this thread I had the time to do more than read.

I'm catching up now, but here are some of my thoughts so far:


Won't vote for:
Shasta- He seems to speak sense in an innocent way. Though I thought he was evil on early Day 1. I definitely need to reread his posts when I get a chance.
Lommy- Seems a little less innocent than yesterDay, but still makes sense and says a lot that I agree with.
Greenie- Not so sure about her. She felt very innocent yesterDay, but she doesn't so much toDay. She'll be another for me to reread.
Legate- He does seem a bit unclear/abstract at times, but I don't think he's evil.
Phantom- However much he's annoyed me, I can't actually see him being evil.
Inzil- I can never read him, but so far I can't see anything bad about him.
Rune- Just looks like he's having a bit of fun (and isn't that what this is about?), in an innocentish way.

Haven't seen enough:
Kath
Celuien
Mira
Foley- She's been around more than the ones above, but I can't really get a read on her yet.
Nog- See Foley, and he doesn't seem any more suspicious to me than usually does.

No idea (so most likely won't vote just yet):
Nerwen- Not sure whether I like or dislike her, but she's leaning innocent for now.

People who don't look so good:
Sally- As than the early rep-vote yesterDay, her responses just don't seem honest. However, because of the Lottie thing, I don't think she would be as likely to be an Elf, though there still is enough of a possibility for me to be willing to vote for her.
Wilwa- Everything she says makes me more convinced of her Elvishness. And she split her vote yesterDay when she could have used them both on Lottie, which seems like a very Elvsih thing to do, as I said earlier (She can cover herself by having voted an elf, but didn't use all her voting power to actually get her killed).

edit: fixed formatting and Xed with many (including 3 votes for Xed), though that doesn't matter since I haven't caught up fully anyway.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Having just read Nerwen's Wilwa post and looked at the voting, I have to say that it's unlikely that my top two suspects are both Elves together. Wilwa's vote put both Lottie and Sally in first place, and though it would make her look really innocent if they both turn out to be Elves, I don't think they would have wanted us to find out that they were both Elves (i.e., by getting them lynched). So basically, unless Wilwa was playing extremely riskily, she and Sally probably aren't Elves together.

Which means that one of my choices probably isn't an Elf. And right now, I think that's more likely to be Sally.

So if nothing really happens soon my votes will probably be for Wilwa.

Intends to vote Wilwa.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

FOk, well I can't really see why Celuien is such a suspect now. I'll need to reread her again when I'm less tired, but from what I've seen so far she just doesn't seem really innocent in any way, but she doesn't really look evil either. And she hasn't really posted enough for me to judge her.

And as I said earlier, I'd rather vote Wilwa than Sally right now, so:

[highlight++Wilwa x2++[/highlight


And now it's up to Foley

Gives both votes to Wilwa.

Day 3

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Sorry everyone, I was going to write a list of all the votes so far and stuff, but I'm just exhausted and have a cold, so just a few comments from me.

As many have said so far, I don't really think we can blame Foley for the lynch. Most people (including me) seemed to be almost certain that one of the two would be evil (though the general consensus was that if one was; the other wasn't, I believe), and if one had been evil, a double lynch would have taken care of the problem. However, if we look at it positively, I think we would have wasted time toDay arguing over whether one of yesterDay's two lynchees (had one survived) was evil, since people suspected them for different reasons.


Also:

I almost had a heart attack when I read that.

Doesn't blame Foley, a sentiment with which I agree. Makes a point about the fact that if only one had been lynched, the other would probably be the focus of toDay, and thus, a wasted Day. Probably, but I still don't see the double-lynch as a good thing.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

The problem is that as the game wears on, I seem to be getting less and less confident about who I find innocent or guilty.

Anyway, I was going to vote Zil as rep, because I want to see more of him, but since he's already one, and I don't really want him to have too much of a supermacy over the others, I'm going to vote someone else that I wanted to see talk more.


So I'm going to vote:

[highligh]++Rune[/highlight

Let's see what he does with the power he so craves.

Talks (again) of voting me for rep, and goes for Rune instead.

Conclusions? Well, I thought he looked pretty good early on, though he was obviously wrong about Boro. His drawing attention to Lottie could be a point in his favor. His reactions to the phantom have been strange at times, and appear somewhat inconsistant. Now that I look closely, he doesn't seem as innocent as he did earlier. Still, probably not a likely vote for me toDay.